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PeterF wrote:Ok, now go back and ask him about the oxidized bronze reproducers' serial numbers ,and their composite vs one-piece weights, please!

Here is a picture from Steve Medved in response to my query about the serial numbers -

I think I mentioned this elsewhere on the forum but I've got these oxidised reproducers running from about sn 4xx to 30xxx. There were only about 10,000 A-150s made. The A-150 is the only machine which was matched to the reproducer. The whole A series was only made from ~ late 1912 through December 1914.

My totally unproven theory is that the a oxidized reproducers may have started out being numbered separately but eventually, after some months or a year numbers may have been co-mingled with the other finishes. There is absolutely no reason I can think of that Edison would have made 30xxx plus reproducers in this finish.

Regarding the fact that this finish can be found with weights without the bottom plate, not a big surprise. I'm guessing reproducers in this finish were made as replacement well into the teens of not longer.

Please add any supporting or contradicting observations. It's an interesting topic.

I just compiled the info we have here so far, and sent it to Steve Medved along with the various surrounding questions. I'll post his response. You're right, the oxidized bronze finish Edison Diamond Disc reproducer (known in extremely limited circles as the OBFEDDR) is a fascinating topic.

I can go along with most of your theories Valecnik, but I somehow don't think the special-finish replacements would still have been made for very long. It just seems that the oxidized-bronze finish must have been expensive and time consuming to implement, perhaps even needing special equipment. But who knows.

As an aside, I'm almost OCD about that finish and am bit by bit replacing all the metalwork in our house with it. Door hardware, switchplates, light fixtures, heat registers, window and cabinet latches...beside the A-150, Vic R, and both types of Amberola I. No Opera or Amberola III.

Of course the ultimate would be an Idelia. Maybe someday. Almost tempting to convert a Triumph into a repro Idelia, which might be cheaper, because there are a couple of restorers who recreate the finish today.

But I wonder whether the original technique is documented someplace in contemporaneous literature, and whether those guys do it the same way as back then. Part of the problem in researching this is the variation in names used for it - Edison literature calls it oxidized bronze, and others call it oxidized copper and other terms. Seems to have been popular - although very much so - for only a brief period of a few years.

Frow says the A150 metal parts were "gold plated, or oxidized bronze, then nickelled."

I would interpret this to mean not all A150's were oxidized bronze..??

In any case, I was able to locate an oxidized bronze reproducer lifting lever. The one originally on the machine I have had gold trim on the metal parts of the lever. This one is so much cooler! And the shutoff arm is adjustable, too.

Cliff

Based on what I've seen, the mahogany ones had gold hardware, except for the oxidized reproducer and top of tone arm and the oak ones had all oxidized hardware including crank and crank escutcheon. The oak ones had brown bed plates and orange-brown felt. The mahogany ones had dark burgundy bed plates and dark green felt. If yours is mahogany, appears to be, it probably was configured with gold hardware. The number on the bedplate also should, match the number on the data plate. There could be legitimate exceptions. If possible, I'd try to avoid mixing and matching if you want to keep original and avoid confusing future collectors.

Valecnik wrote: If possible, I'd try to avoid mixing and matching if you want to keep original and avoid confusing future collectors.

+1 for this suggestion.

The shuffling of parts by collectors & dealers over the years has caused problems for those researching antique phonographs. Substituting an identical part in better condition is fine, but altering the original specifications is being unkind to history and to the future.

George P.

phonogfp wrote:

Valecnik wrote: If possible, I'd try to avoid mixing and matching if you want to keep original and avoid confusing future collectors.

+1 for this suggestion.

The shuffling of parts by collectors & dealers over the years has caused problems for those researching antique phonographs. Substituting an identical part in better condition is fine, but altering the original specifications is being unkind to history and to the future.

George P.

Hear, hear!

Fran

I've been communicating with Steve Medved on the topic today, and it appears that if your oxidized bronze reproducer has a one-piece weight and straight (not bent) limit loop, it's a late replacement. A letter prefix to the serial number will bolster that possibility.

He also let me know that A-250s in oak had this hardware finish available, and it's also possible that some very early C-250s could thus also have been shipped with it. That solves the conundrum of non-prefixed serials totaling more than total A-150 production. But we also don't know whether all DD reproducers were numbered in a single series regardless of finish, so maybe none of that matters.

Duncan Stop reproducers (late teens to early 20s) were also shipped in an oxidized finish - but with a lighter yellower revealed metal rather than the coppery orange, and the bent limit loop. Mine is gold and the S/N is EM 12108. After the Duncan was discontinued, the limit loops went back to the unbent configuration.

So if this is all true, they really were still doing the oxidized finish for quite some time after it wasn't in the current product line. That's pretty cool.

PeterF wrote:
He also let me know that A-250s in oak had this hardware finish available, and it's also possible that some very early C-250s could thus also have been shipped with it. That solves the conundrum of non-prefixed serials totaling more than total A-150 production. But we also don't know whether all DD reproducers were numbered in a single series regardless of finish, so maybe none of that matters.

Duncan Stop reproducers (late teens to early 20s) were also shipped in an oxidized finish - but with a lighter yellower revealed metal rather than the coppery orange, and the bent limit loop. Mine is gold and the S/N is EM 12108. After the Duncan was discontinued, the limit loops went back to the unbent configuration.

So if this is all true, they really were still doing the oxidized finish for quite some time after it wasn't in the current product line. That's pretty cool.

I've never seen an oak A, B, or C-250 with oxidized finish. They could well have been offered but I wonder if any were ever made? Not disagreeing.Just don't know. I would love to have one if they are out there. I'm not sure it solves the conundrum. A-150s turn up from time to time, not terribly difficult to find. Extra oxidized reproducers turn up quite more frequently, understandably as the cabinet but it's legs broken, thrown out and the reproducer was saved.

Valecnik wrote:Based on what I've seen, the mahogany ones had gold hardware, except for the oxidized reproducer and top of tone arm and the oak ones had all oxidized hardware including crank and crank escutcheon. The oak ones had brown bed plates and orange-brown felt. The mahogany ones had dark burgundy bed plates and dark green felt. If yours is mahogany, appears to be, it probably was configured with gold hardware. The number on the bedplate also should, match the number on the data plate. There could be legitimate exceptions. If possible, I'd try to avoid mixing and matching if you want to keep original and avoid confusing future collectors.

Good information. Thanks! The cabinet for my A150 is indeed mahogany. I will switch back to the gold lift lever, though, the oxidized one looks so sporty... This machine came with a nickel plated turntable. I purchased some A150 parts from eBay, which included the oxidized lever and reproducer, and a nickelled turntable with green felt.

My machine had no grill, crank, or reproducer when I got it. It was a freebie from a generous collector who knows how I love a challenge. So far, I've replaced the horn, bought an oxidized crank, bought and installed a new spring, reconditioned the motor, bought a reproducer, replaced some other small parts, and am now trying to fix the back of the cabinet so I can attach the lid. Looks like someone tore the lid off backwards and much of the wood back there is missing and needs to be replaced. Then I have to get a new lid. A mahogany lid has been offered on eBay for the last couple weeks, but the exterior of this cabinet has been stripped and refinished in a much lighter color than came from the factory, almost like red oak. It is very attractive, but the eBay lid is way too dark to match. The inside of the cabinet is still dark mahogany. After that, I'll need a new grill, which is being made to order by the folks who own the Five and Dime a few doors down from my shop. They've made some very nice grills for me, the lady is a whiz with a scroll saw.

At least it plays very nicely, now. The motor, horn, and reproducer work quite well.

https://youtu.be/VzHbsEoIpXk

Cliff