The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Starkton wrote:

Steve wrote:The cabinet shares some similarities with the G & T Melba pedestal. Was it made in the same factory?

It is difficult to tell because of the awful modern paint. Although I am looking for a pedestal for my Monarch de Luxe No. 15b I couldn't get myself to place a bid.

The case of the HMV No. 9 is one of the nicest I can imagine. A feast for the eyes and worth every penny you invested, but you know that I have a different opinion about overpainting the horn.
Why did you get the elbow painted green?

Surely the modern paint can't disguised the original shape, detailing and construction of the pedestal? My horn was repainted by the way and not simply "overpainted", the distinction being that ALL original surviving paint was first removed, the horn was rubbed down to remove rust and then it was freshly painted. I made a photographic record of the horn before this was carried out but as usual the differing lighting conditions under which pictures were taken make comparison between old and new colour almost impossible. Another thing that wasn't clear from the original Ebay photos was how dirty and discoloured the surviving paint actually was. I have added a few "before" pictures below and in one you can see a tiny patch of the dark green which has been cleaned at the edge of the horn. The "as found" colour had more than a hint of blue in it and it appeared a lot darker than the original paint originally was. Anyway......I appreciate your position regarding the repainting of the horn and I respect that but I must emphasise that I would only take on this job if I felt it was completely necessary. The original paint was crumbling and lifting off the horn whenever I touched it. It deposited small fragments of paint wherever I sat it down! Running a finger along the paint would remove particles of it with releative ease. There was simply no adhesion between the crumbly paint and the tin surface. It's hardly any wonder that most of the internal face had been lost already.

The original paint was unusual for a horn (they were usually a high gloss or eggshell type finish originally) being a MATT that was varnised over or finished with shellac possibly? The new paint has also been sealed with varnish and then over-coated with shellac. As you may recall the gramophone arrived with a continental elbow sat on top of a cut down G & T elbow with drilled out pins and filed down flange (to fit the later back-bracket aperture). With a continental elbow fitting - the horn had a slot cut into it into which the elbow pin slotted - the Nipper decal was therefore upside down! A G & T / HMV horn normally has a threaded pin in the underside into which a locking bolt is threaded through the elbow slot ie. it's the complete reverse arrangement.

I had to fix a patch over the slot so a circular hole could be made through it for the HMV elbow bolt arrangement to work. Hence now the decal is the right way up!

The spare elbow I had already was unplated brass (nickel long lost to posterity) so it was a decision to get it replated or paint to match the horn. Given that new nickel would probably stick out like a sore thumb and not match the original anyway (and leaving it bare would have meant yet another colour / finish on view) I elected to do the latter. Also, I have seen pictures of TWO other examples of this machine on the internet: one with red / yellow contrasting wooden horn and another painted tin horn which had a painted elbow similar to some Pathé horn machines. Why they did this I have no idea. Or maybe that one wasn't strictly original either?

Steve wrote:Surely the modern paint can't disguised the original shape, detailing and construction of the pedestal?

I am unable to say from the auction image if a reproduction, a contemporary imitation or a G&T pedestal is hidden under the modern lacquer, which does away the historical details. Even if there is an old core, was it ebonised originally and what had been done with the surface before applying the lacquer? I rather wait for an unmolested pedestal.

Oh, I see now what you are saying. So there are possibly imitation pedestals out there?

There is an unknown number of Melba gramophone reproductions also, I believe from the Netherlands, although they can't fool an expert because of deficiently sculpted pressed metal sheets of the case.

In my opinion, the stand is a heavily restored original. You can see an expansion crack (commonly found) on the door frame (circled in red). Why reproduce this..??.

The stand is also missing (no lion heads) all the correct hardware; including the key escutcheon plate.
I wonder if the celluloid medallion was present..?.

.....and I thought my eyes were quite 'keen' but to spot an "expansion crack in the door", wow, that's very good going!

Steve wrote:.....and I thought my eyes were quite 'keen' but to spot an "expansion crack in the door", wow, that's very good going!

Thanks Steve. However, I think it's more knowing what are seen on mine and others I have observed closely. These applied panel frames are very thin and seem to be prone to cracking due in part to shrinking.

I would venture there are more on that cabinet that can't been seen given the poor pic or from the restoration. At least that one crack is still quite prevalent in the pic.

Here are some of the cracks in mine.

Also, I'm adding a pic of the medallion.... .

There are a few shrinkage splits in my No. 9 cabinet too, and probably for similar reasons. This further convinces me that with the similar construction, my No.9 cabinet and those pedestals were made in the same place by the same people. Does anyone know who made them exactly?

The shrinkage splits are all going in one direction. They seem to appear only at the edges of the panel frame pieces. Therefore I guess that only the original paint cracked.

The fault on the questionable pedestal sits at another place and has another direction. Either the manufacturing method was different, or the frame itself was broken and only loosely attached before lacquering. This is part of the surprises which await you after removing the modern paint.

Steve wrote: those pedestals were made in the same place by the same people. Does anyone know who made them exactly?

I have no evidence, but my personal guess is Sächsische Holzwarenfabrik Max Böhme & Co. A. G. or F. A. Anger & Sohn, Jöhstadt in Sachsen.

Steve wrote:There are a few shrinkage splits in my No. 9 cabinet too, and probably for similar reasons. This further convinces me that with the similar construction, my No.9 cabinet and those pedestals were made in the same place by the same people. Does anyone know who made them exactly?

Steve, as I mentioned, a friend has one of these stands in a non-ebonized finish. Here is a pic of how it looks.