The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

bart1927 wrote:About the sound: I can only compare it with the sound of my two HMV 101's, my 102 and my 130. Compared to those it sounds a lot bigger and louder, but also with a bit more bottom end. The sound is really impressive for an acoustic machine. Of course I already auditioned it when I visited the seller, but he only had a couple of worn out rock and roll and big band records, so when I played it for the first time in my own home and pulled out a nice Victor Scroll (Jan Garber and His Orchestra with "Positively, Absolutely"), I was like, "wow!"

I also own an HMV 102 so I can quite figure the comparison you're talking about. That's quite what I expected: the horn of the 163, being folded and convoluted, turns out to be very long and gives a lot of amplification. But, comparatively, the bass response is just not as much impressively better, although the horn's mouth looks so bigger. That's partly because the lid and case of the 102 somewhat act as a horn mouth, increasing the effective aperture of the inner horn, but also because there's a turning point from which the horn's mouth should be *dramatically* enlarged to give any slightly better bass response.

I think, however, that the sound will improve considerably if you will find the bravery to rebuild the soundbox. 5As and 5Bs are usually left untouched because the back is made with pot metal and their sound seems "fair" as they are, but most of them (if not all) should instead definitely be rehauled to enjoy the full experience of what they can give. I don't want to give you any bad or risky advice, but I still think that, with such a classy machine, you should consider taking the risk.

The jittery movement of your speed indicator seems to me due to a lack of lubrication of the governor's shaft. I would try to lubricate the central shaft in proximity to the governor's disc, on both sides (also where the weight springs are attached). The disc should be absolutely free to move back and forth over the shaft.

I must admit though that my modern dedicated system (Rek-O-Kut CVS 14 with several Expert Styli), my Kab Souvenir VSP, Cambridge Audio amp and Dynaudio speakers still sounds better, because it has a much wider frequency range. But then of course you miss out on that great experience of cranking up the machine, putting in a fresh needle, releasing the break, and slowly putting down the needle, in the exact way they used to listen to these records when they were brand new and modern. No need for a DeLorean of a Tardis

We have quite the same setup, as aside from a Thorens TD-126 I also own a Technics SL-1200 MKII with the KAB Broadcast Standard add-on. It has been a terrible pain back then to have it "broadcastedized" as I had to disassemble the main board, ship it to KAB USA to be modified, wait for it to come back, have a gunfight at the duties and finally re-install it; but it was worth the effort in the end.

However, most of the times I use modern Hi-Fi equipment only to listen to a big batch of rare but most of all *shiny new* jazz 78s that I had the luck to purchase many years ago (possibly from a deceased collector). Those had never been played by a gramophone or a radiogram before, and I religiously leave them that way. For all other 78s, I personally feel that Hi-Fi equipments are too much analytic and that they highlight noise and rumble more than they improve the overall listening experience. So I tend to listen to "average" 78s with some high-quality, intermediate-weight pickup radiogram, which are definitely more forgiving with 78s limitations. Just my taste, of course.

Gram1948 wrote:Hello Bart1927. First of all thanks for the mention of my website (graham-ophones) I started it soon after I started collecting and restoring a couple of years or so ago for just such a purpose as you have used it.

Hello Graham, I'm also a returning visitor of your website, which is one of the most appealing and interesting to read in Europe. It's also basically your "fault" if I purchased a Columbia 160 lately, and if I'm restoring the fabrikoid with shoeshine cream - I think I read it first on your website that it's OK to use it. Although the gramophone came to me in quite critical conditions, it's coming out fairly well I dare to say.

I wonder where and how you could put your hands on those pristine 112 and 113 that I've seen on your website, they seem to be so rare on the market that I really had to purchase a "only so-and-so" 160 in the end. But of course you have your secret sources, I suppose.

Congrats for your restoration works, some of them are outstanding.

Marco Gilardetti wrote:

bart1927 wrote:About the sound: I can only compare it with the sound of my two HMV 101's, my 102 and my 130. Compared to those it sounds a lot bigger and louder, but also with a bit more bottom end. The sound is really impressive for an acoustic machine. Of course I already auditioned it when I visited the seller, but he only had a couple of worn out rock and roll and big band records, so when I played it for the first time in my own home and pulled out a nice Victor Scroll (Jan Garber and His Orchestra with "Positively, Absolutely"), I was like, "wow!"

I also own an HMV 102 so I can quite figure the comparison you're talking about. That's quite what I expected: the horn of the 163, being folded and convoluted, turns out to be very long and gives a lot of amplification. But, comparatively, the bass response is just not as much impressively better, although the horn's mouth looks so bigger. That's partly because the lid and case of the 102 somewhat act as a horn mouth, increasing the effective aperture of the inner horn, but also because there's a turning point from which the horn's mouth should be *dramatically* enlarged to give any slightly better bass response.

I think, however, that the sound will improve considerably if you will find the bravery to rebuild the soundbox. 5As and 5Bs are usually left untouched because the back is made with pot metal and their sound seems "fair" as they are, but most of them (if not all) should instead definitely be rehauled to enjoy the full experience of what they can give. I don't want to give you any bad or risky advice, but I still think that, with such a classy machine, you should consider taking the risk.

The jittery movement of your speed indicator seems to me due to a lack of lubrication of the governor's shaft. I would try to lubricate the central shaft in proximity to the governor's disc, on both sides (also where the weight springs are attached). The disc should be absolutely free to move back and forth over the shaft.

I must admit though that my modern dedicated system (Rek-O-Kut CVS 14 with several Expert Styli), my Kab Souvenir VSP, Cambridge Audio amp and Dynaudio speakers still sounds better, because it has a much wider frequency range. But then of course you miss out on that great experience of cranking up the machine, putting in a fresh needle, releasing the break, and slowly putting down the needle, in the exact way they used to listen to these records when they were brand new and modern. No need for a DeLorean of a Tardis

We have quite the same setup, as aside from a Thorens TD-126 I also own a Technics SL-1200 MKII with the KAB Broadcast Standard add-on. It has been a terrible pain back then to have int "broadcastedized" as I had to disassemble the main board, ship it to KAB USA to be modified, wait for it to come back, have a gunfight at the duties and finally re-install it; but it was worth the effort in the end.

However, most of the times I use modern Hi-Fi equipment only to listen to a big batch of rare but most of all *shiny new* jazz 78s that I had the luck to purchase many years ago (possibly from a deceased collector). Those had never been played by a gramophone or a radiogram before, and I religiously leave them that way. For all other 78s, I personally feel that Hi-Fi equipments are too much analytic and that they highlight noise and rumble more than they improve the overall listening experience. So I tend to listen to "average" 78s with some high-quality, intermediate-weight pickup radiogram, which are definitely more forgiving with 78s limitations. Just my taste, of course.

Apart from the 5B that came with the machine I also have the 5B that came with my 102, the 5A that came with my 130, and another 5B I bought separately. The 5B that came with the 163 is in good condition, without any cracks, but unfortunately the rubber back flange is rock hard. My other two 5B's are both in mint but unrestored condition, with nice flexible back flanges. My 5A was restored by someone in the UK (I forgot his name). Unfortunately a small piece of the back broke off when he tried to remove the old rubber, and he repaired it with what looks like some metal paste.

However, I can't really say that one of them sounds significantly better than the other. There are differences, however. Some sound louder than others, some have a little more emphasis on the high frequencies, while others sound a little warmer. So I don't really feel like opening them up, because I fear I might break them. Also, if the back flange is still flexible, the diaphragm is intact and the sound isn't distorted, I don't really expect to get much of an improvement after restoration. Unlike the No. 4 reproducer, the 5A and B have felt gaskets, and these never dry out.

About the speed indicator: I already found out why it doesn't go smoothly from 78 to S when the record stops: the problem is the brake pad under the turntable that doesn't provide enough friction. When I stop the turntable platter by hand, the dial goes from 78 to S in a smooth manner, but when the automatic brake engages, the turntable doesn't stop right away, but it skids a little. Also, when it is on auto stop, and I wind up the spring, the turntable starts to turn a little. Perhaps I need to replace the brake pad or somehow roughen it up a little.

I know what you mean about playing vintage records on modern equipment. It took a lot of time (and money) before I had a satisfying set-up. But thanks to the Kab Souvenir VSP (Vintage Signal Processor) most records sound really good, without any bloated bass or overwhelming hiss and crackle. Only when a record has really a lot of rumble, the VSP can't fix it. I have a few acoustic Pathé's that sound like there's a big truck idling in my living room.

bart1927 wrote:So I don't really feel like opening them up, because I fear I might break them. Also, if the back flange is still flexible, the diaphragm is intact and the sound isn't distorted, I don't really expect to get much of an improvement after restoration. Unlike the No. 4 reproducer, the 5A and B have felt gaskets, and these never dry out.

One relatively easy revamp you can do on the 5a/5b is to unscrew the two lateral needle bar pivots, unscrew and slide out the rods, clean and oil them. This will help reduce friction in the pivoting movement and reduce wear to discs. I agree that there is no value in opening the soundbox, there is nothing inside that is susceptible to harden or wear. Replacing the back rubber ring is very difficult to do without cracking the pot metal: unscrewing the two little screws is already challenging, and even if you succeed in that, removing the petrified rubber requires hours of work, with no guarantee of success.

163 just sold on Ebay for £135 !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-Vinta ... 800wt_1257

soundgen wrote:163 just sold on Ebay for £135 !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-Vinta ... 800wt_1257

That is really cheap. I think mine looks better, though. Still, in the Netherlands GBP 135 (which is about EUR 175) is just enough to buy a black 101 in nice condition.

I also second Carlo's suggestion to care at least about the pivot's lubrication and its backlash: it improves greatly the sound over loud passages, aside of preserving the records. Also, I would suggest to verify at least that the isolator, although hard as rock, is still airtight. If negative, it can be easily fixed with a small quantity of black silicone sealant (the repair will be invisible).

I wouldn't bother at all about other eBay prices. Had you participated in the bidding, that wouldn't have been the final price. And in any case, as with most things purchased on eBay, that machine has for sure a lot of problems, needs a huge rehaul even if the seller says it "works", and is maybe missing parts nowhere to be found.

bart1927 wrote:I know what you mean about playing vintage records on modern equipment. It took a lot of time (and money) before I had a satisfying set-up. But thanks to the Kab Souvenir VSP (Vintage Signal Processor) most records sound really good, without any bloated bass or overwhelming hiss and crackle. Only when a record has really a lot of rumble, the VSP can't fix it. I have a few acoustic Pathé's that sound like there's a big truck idling in my living room.

I do know this device (as said, I've already been a KAB client...) but there are some reasons that refrain me from buying it. First of all the dedicated page on KAB's website is terrible and there isn't even a true picture of the product. Secondly, what the de-hisser, de-crackler and de-rumbler do and how they act is very superficially described (don't even know if all of the three are indeed present). Finally, I really don't like the way in which the equalizer is conceived (with "age" presets), I would like much better a separate bass and treble cutoff control.

But there is also another reason that you may find very weird (but perhaps not so much), and it is that these devices (not only KAB's) are monaural. Although I perfectly know that all 78s are natively monaural, for some reason I like much more to listen to them stereophonically when I use an Hi-Fi system. Of course I perfectly understand that whatever "stereo" effect I may hear is all due to artifacts and distortions of some kind, but still for some reason (psychoacoustics? euphonics?) the sound seems WAY more vivid to my ears. Trumpet especially. If I switch to monaural it all falls down flat.

It may be only me, or not, I don't know. Have you ever listened to 78s in stereo, and if positive, do you perhaps have an opinion on this point?

Marco Gilardetti wrote:I also second Carlo's suggestion to care at least about the pivot's lubrication and its backlash: that improves greatly the sound over loud passages. Also, I suggest to verify at least that the isolator, although hard as rock, is still airtight. If negative, this can be easily fixed with a small quantity of black silicone sealant (the repair will be invisible).

Don't bother about other eBay prices. Had you participated in the bidding, that wouldn't have been the final price. And in any case, as with most things purchased on eBay, that machine has for sure a lot of problems and needs a huge rehaul.

bart1927 wrote:I know what you mean about playing vintage records on modern equipment. It took a lot of time (and money) before I had a satisfying set-up. But thanks to the Kab Souvenir VSP (Vintage Signal Processor) most records sound really good, without any bloated bass or overwhelming hiss and crackle. Only when a record has really a lot of rumble, the VSP can't fix it. I have a few acoustic Pathé's that sound like there's a big truck idling in my living room.

I know this device (as said, I've already been a KAB client) but there are some reasons that refrain me from buying it. First of all the dedicated page on KAB's website is terrible and there isn't even a true picture of the product. What the de-hisser, de-crackler and de-rumbler do and how they act is very superficially described (don't even know if all of the three are indeed present). And, also, I really don't like the way in which the equalizer is conceived (with "age" presets), I would like much better a separate bass and treble cutoff control.

But there is also another reason that you may find very weird (but perhaps not so much), and it is that these devices (not only KAB's) are monaural. Although I perfectly know that all 78s are natively monaural, for some reason I like much more to listen to them stereophonically on Hi-Fi systems. I perfectly understand that whatever "stereo" effect I may hear is all due to artifacts of some kind, but still for some reason (psychoacoustics? euphonics?) the sound seems WAY more vivid to my ears. Trumpet especially. If I switch to monaural it all falls down flat.

It may be only me, or not, I don't know. Have you ever listened to 78s in stereo, and if positive, do you perhaps have an opinion on this point?

I'm certainly not too worried about Ebay prices. First of all, that 163 was in the UK, so that means at least a 200 euro markup for shipping. Second, the inside looks pretty bad. The felt is gone, the nickle parts look dull, how the motor is you can't even tell. Also, it is obviously refinished. Mine is also, probably, but this particular one is really light, and they even sanded down the inside of the lid. At least they managed to avoid the decal, but it still looks a bit strange.

About the VSP. I'm not really a technical guy, but I heard the VSP on Rick Conaty's "The Big Broadcast", and also on Radio Dismuke's live Broadcasts on New Years Eve. And I really liked the sound of it.

My 1st turntable I just hooked up to my stereo directly, so I played my 78's in stereo. I know what that sounds like. The music is of course still mono, but the clicks and pops are in stereo. It sounds a bit strange to my ears. But the biggest disadvantage is that when you play 78's directly through your stereo system they are equalized using the RIAA curve. Perfect for most microgroove records, not so good for 78's. RIAA puts too much emphasis on the low frequencies, and represses the highs. For acoustic 78's this is actually not a bad thing, cause there's little at the high end (only hiss), and the low end gets a bit of a boost.

The VSP has:
1) A built-in rumble filter: I have a few records with a lot of rumble, and in my opinion, the KAB-filter isn't very effective on these.
2) A click/pop-supressor (can be turned on or off): Very effective on hairline cracks and works also on scratches, if they're not too deep. It doesn't work on crackle, though.
3) A tunable HI filter: It cuts off everything above a certain threshold: It's a dial, so you can choose how much you want to cut. With really clean records I usually don't use this filter, only on records with a little bit more wear or on acoustics. You can switch between ON and OFF so you can hear immediately if it's just noise you're filtering, or also music.
4) A dynamic noise filter: I'm not really a fan of this one, and I never use it. Basically, the amount of noise that's filtered, depends on how loud the music is. This has an annoying sound effect: the background hiss increases and decreases with the volume of the music, creating a "breathing" noise.
5) A groove wall selector: You can create your own mono mix, by selecting how much of each groove wall you want to use. Especially helpful if one groove wall has more wear than the other, otherwise it's best just to leave the dial at 12 o' clock.
6) A vertical/lateral switch: So you can both play lateral and vertical (Edison's, some Pathé's) records.
7) Several equalisation presets. I understand your desire to make your own combination of turnover and rolloff settings. This is still possible, of course, but then of course you have to put a separate equalizer in the loop. I've asked the owner of KAB if he ever considered to make a VSP with two dials for Turnover and rolloff (like the Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer), and he had studied the possibilities, but it would end up costing more, and according to his own research most of his customers liked the easy of using presets better.

Before I had the VSP, I also had Esoteric Sounds Re-Equalizer combined with their Surface Noise Reducer, but I wasn't really happy with the results. Using the guidelines from the manual, the background noise increased immensely, and using the surface noise reducer introduced the same "breathing" effect I described earlier.

With the VSP these problems were gone (as long as I don't use the dynamic noise filter), and soon I even began to like the fixed presets. I mostly play 78's from 1920-1930, so I mostly use the AC setting for acoustic, and AE for electric recordings. Sometimes I use a different setting if a record doesn't sound good (not enough bass or highs). There's an extensive list in the manual with suggested presets for the different record labels.

If you want to get a general idea about the results I get, I posted several transfers in the Music section. These sides were all played through the VSP, only thing I did afterwards was give them a pass through Click Repair, to remove the worst crackle (very useful for HMV's or grainy Victors), and some of the clicks/pops the VSP missed.

What I like best about the VSP is that it's easy to use, it's all in real time, and it's all analogue. With digital processing you have the risk of introducing digital artifacts. The only thing that was a bit complicated is that I had to buy a separate power pack here in Europe, to use the VSP with 230V. But the owner of KAB (Kevin) was very helpful with that.

Perhaps I will try to tweak the 5B soundbox a little. Only problem is I can't loosen the lock nuts. Even the smallest wrench I have doesn't fit.

bart1927 wrote: Perhaps I will try to tweak the 5B soundbox a little. Only problem is I can't loosen the lock nuts. Even the smallest wrench I have doesn't fit.

The way to do it is to unscrew the internal rod, it has two slots that fit a small screw driver. The nut will not move until the rod unscrews completely, then it will hang on the rod until you slide it completely out. To reinstall it, you don't need a wrench, just need to hold the nut in place with your finger and screw back the rod. It is not difficult.

CarlosV wrote:

bart1927 wrote: Perhaps I will try to tweak the 5B soundbox a little. Only problem is I can't loosen the lock nuts. Even the smallest wrench I have doesn't fit.

The way to do it is to unscrew the internal rod, it has two slots that fit a small screw driver. The nut will not move until the rod unscrews completely, then it will hang on the rod until you slide it completely out. To reinstall it, you don't need a wrench, just need to hold the nut in place with your finger and screw back the rod. It is not difficult.

I removed the end caps, but when I try to unscrew the rod, the nuts start turning also!