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Thanks for your very detailed, poit-to-point essay VintageTechnologies. That was a very interesting and informative reading. One day I'll also own some Pathé records. It's unbelievable how scarce they are in Italy - I've never seen one "in the wild", not even at specialized records markets. France and Italy usually have a lot in common and were also allied during WWI, so one would expect to see the aftermaths of huge commercial trades. Apparently, that didn't happen with records. Not in those in years, at least (later "normal" French 78s are quite common in Italy).

VintageTechnologies wrote:Remember the videotape wars, Betamax vs. VHS?

Ah, you can bet that I remember it! And it ended quite the same way: one side (Sony in that case) surrendered at one point; just like Pathé, that gave up developing its technology.

Marco Gilardetti wrote:It's unbelievable how scarce they are in Italy - I've never seen one "in the wild", not even at specialized records markets.

I have a number of first-generation (excluding their cement-based discs) center-start pathé records that have labels partially written in Italian and are announced in Italian, however I bought them all in France. The sleeves were in Italian. I believe these discs were all manufactured in France and exported, just like the first-generation of Gramophone and Typewriter, all manufactured in Hannover. I have also some later Italian vertical-cut Pathés, now with paper labels and written totally in Italian (Disco Pathé instead of Disques Pathé), but it is not clear that Pathé ever had any factory in Italy.

Yes it did, but only later I think. Perhaps I didn't stress enough the fact that I was referring to vertical Pathé records only. Later lateral records - those made up to the '50s - are instead very very common and they have the "Made in Italy" sign on the green/golden label. Famous Italian artists as Renato Carosone and Marino Marini recorded for Pathé in the '50s, and their records are very easily found.

Conversely, I also think that vertical Pathé records were solely made in France and then exported. They were widely advertised on period Italian newspapers so there's no doubt that they were commonly sold in shops; but for some reason, as said earlier, they are amazingly hard to find today.

In my own experimentation Vertical always won! I have a Fairchild lathe head, for cutting 78s. When I used it to cut 78rpm records, of the lateral variety, the highs had to be boosted to almost the point of burning the coil out to be heard on a recording. When turning the same recording head sidways for vertical modulation for cutting my electrically recorded cylinders, the highs could be recorded flat and they sounded brighter than when I recorded with the same recording head laterally, also the bass was easier to record as well. The same has been my experience with lateral acoustic and vertical acoustic recording. The lateral acoustic always sounded muddier and the input source had to be louder. The Vertical recorder, sounded much more natural and cleaner. I have recorded thousands of vertical recordings, so experience speaks here.

Can't it be that the Fairchild was engineered in such a way that, perhaps only coincidentally, it performs better when cutting vertically?

I'm puzzled by the *huge* difference that you report.

I think the discussion lies on the acoustic era, not on supremacy of one technique over another in absolute terms, as it does not make sense to compare vertical x lateral when you listen to 78 rpms from the 50s that can display wide ranges both in spectrum and dynamics, showing that there is no technical limitation in recording 78 rpms in high-fidelity.

Keeping on the acoustic era, from my sample across the board the single factor that differentiates the quality of the recording is not lateral or vertical cut, but recording technique, i.e., the placement of the musicians, the acoustics of the room, the choice of horns etc.

The Fairchild was designed to record lateral cut 78rpm singles, and 16" 33 ⅓ rpm transcription records in the late 40's, early 50's. It originally had a high frequency limiter in the electronics that goes with it, such as is also found on Presto lathe heads. The cutter itself is capable of 15,000cps however when new it was used for recording 16" transcriptions and was limited to no more than 8,000cps as without cooling, the coil surely would burn up by the end of a 33rpm, usually though when used with original equipment would have a 17db boost at 6,500cps. I also own and use daily one of the finest vertical acoustic recorders, an Edison studio recording head used by Walter Miller for actually cutting Edison masters, both Diamond Disc and Blue Amberols. For those in the UK who do not know me, I make cylinder blanks and records. I first started in 1994 with the Miller Morris blanks from the UK and then manufactured my own blanks starting in 2,000. I have recorded several thousand cylinder records. The cylinders go to museums, the recording industry, the movie industry and the general public.