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Clay, one of the first incarnations of the Victor II (with 8" turntable) used a "N" horn and the "H" horn as an option. So, there were many changes not only in case style, but also in horn arrangements during this models lengthy production. This may need to be taken into consideration while reviewing the "Data Book".

Wouldn't it be fun to see the actual ID tag on machine used as the example for the catalog as the "Improved Victor II" with double spring motor. Has anyone actually seen a machine with an 8" turntable and double spring motor that is tagged as a Victor "Type II"? That doesn't mean that they don't exist but I'd love to see a photo. Jerry

Jerry B. wrote:

Clay, one of the first incarnations of the Victor II (with 8" turntable) used a "N" horn and the "H" horn as an option. So, there were many changes not only in case style, but also in horn arrangements during this models lengthy production. This may need to be taken into consideration while reviewing the "Data Book".

Wouldn't it be fun to see the actual ID tag on machine used as the example for the catalog as the "Improved Victor II" with double spring motor. Has anyone actually seen a machine with an 8" turntable and double spring motor that is tagged as a Victor "Type II"? That doesn't mean that they don't exist but I'd love to see a photo. Jerry

It is a bit curious. The data book shows the 8" turntable double spring iteration of the Victor II first being shipped 10/27/03 with an initial serial number of 50,177. The last shipped date and highest serial number are blank. But the next version, the Type M, (10" turntable and single spring) did not ship until 3/20/05. It indicates that total shipment data before 1906 is incomplete and estimated, but it does show 1,600 being shipped in 1904. There must be some out there somewhere.

Clay

Jerry B. wrote:

Clay, one of the first incarnations of the Victor II (with 8" turntable) used a "N" horn and the "H" horn as an option. So, there were many changes not only in case style, but also in horn arrangements during this models lengthy production. This may need to be taken into consideration while reviewing the "Data Book".

Wouldn't it be fun to see the actual ID tag on machine used as the example for the catalog as the "Improved Victor II" with double spring motor. Has anyone actually seen a machine with an 8" turntable and double spring motor that is tagged as a Victor "Type II"? That doesn't mean that they don't exist but I'd love to see a photo. Jerry

That "Improved Victor II" was, of course a Victor E with a rear mount. Up until the introduction of the spiral drive motor the Victor 1 was the designation for first the Royal and then the Z with a rigid or taper arm rear mount. The Victor II was the E with a rigid arm or rear mount, the Victor III was the Monarch, the IV the Monarch Special. Now at the V the analogy falls apart, for I do not believe that there have ever been found any Victor D machines with the front mount mechanism.

gramophone78 wrote:I understand Clay. This may be where the possible error may stem from. This early Victor catalog showing the "Hump Back". is in error.

The Victor III is pictured where the II should be and the II where the III should be.
However, this is just speculation on my part.. .
Maybe another member can produce another catalog showing differently to match the "Data Book" info.

Victor Catalog (2).JPG

Victor Catalog (1).JPG

"Gramophone78," yes your assumption about the illustrations being flipped is correct. As I recall from my reading in the past this is a pretty well known printing error in a particular catalog. Note, however, that although the illustration is wrong the text concerning the "Improved Victor II" humpback is correct. It is essentially the same as in the catalog pages that John posted. The default horn on the humpback was a G and the H and the No. 19 flower horn were extra cost options, not standard as the VDB seems to indicates.

Mind you I am not throwing rocks at the VDB. It is an invaluable resources I turn to all the time and I am delighted to have it. Would that we had such a rich source of data for other makes. Even so I would be more than astonished if something like it holding thousands of facts on a fairly complex subject did not contain a few slips and this may be one of those. And certainly it is possible that another catalog may turn up showing that the standard horn was changed later in the humpback's production cycle. Such things did happen.