The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

wtt11 wrote:Divert a bit. Are they really subject to crack? I have several and they are very sturdy though. Is that only because I'm lucky?? I store them under no special environment.

You are well beyond lucky!

Clay

"I am also interested in the early, flat end Gold Moulded Edison's"

The only Flat ended Gold Moulded Edison's I know of are the Edison 4-Minute Black Wax Amberols and maybe the Early Directly Recorded (non-dubbed) 1915-1916 4-Minute Blue Amberols (Pretty sure that they were Gold Moulded as well even though they were Blue Amberols..)

I am not aware of any Flat ended 2-minute Gold Moulded Edison cylinders.. There may have been some Flat ended Brown wax Edison cylinder made, but that was before the Gold Moulded process was used.

Columbia though did have flat ended 2 minute cylinder that most likely used a similar Gold Moulded process before they were distributors of Albany Indestructible cylinders in 1908.

I believe that the "Gold Moulded" process simply refers to the method of how the MASTER MOLD was created...and that's pretty much it... I don't think that it refers to anything else.

Please correct me if I am wrong..

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

Prior to July 1904, Edison Gold Moulded Records lacked engraved titles on their ends. While not perfectly flat, these earlier blank rims are often referred to as "flat rims" by modern collectors. The difference in rims between the early GM and later GM Edison records is illustrated in an article on the APM web site titled, Basic Antique Phonograph Operational Tips. The illustration and caption are reproduced below, and you can access the entire article here:

http://www.antiquephono.org/basic-antiq ... onal-tips/

George P.
The earliest examples of the harder black 2 minute cylinders lacked the title engraved on the rim, as seen on the right. By 1904, titles were engraved on the rim, as seen on the left.

phonogfp wrote:Prior to July 1904, Edison Gold Moulded Records lacked engraved titles on their ends. While not perfectly flat, these earlier blank rims are often referred to as "flat rims" by modern collectors. The difference in rims between the early GM and later GM Edison records is illustrated in an article on the APM web site titled, Basic Antique Phonograph Operational Tips. The illustration and caption are reproduced below, and you can access the entire article here:

http://www.antiquephono.org/basic-antiq ... onal-tips/

George P.

earlyGMcyl.jpg

The earliest examples of the harder black 2 minute cylinders lacked the title engraved on the rim, as seen on the right. By 1904, titles were engraved on the rim, as seen on the left.

And just to add to this, the "flat rim" Gold Moulded records usually had the Edison signature and the catalog number engraved on the surface of the cylinder itself between the rim and the first groove. These are usually quite hard to see.

Below is a page from Aylsworth production notes for the manufacture of the earlier method before spinning moulding machines were developed, about 1908 or so. This is from October 14th, 1904. I got the Gold Moulded wax formula and production notes when I was about 10 years old and wrote to Thomas Edison! It made it to the ENHP (then ENHS) Leah Burt was the archivist at this time, I believe a relation to Edison engineer Fred C Burt. Note that is says non label records (those with the flat end and Edison signature). Take and extra minute to mold. In discussion recently with Paul Israel (whom which I talk weekly with). He has not yet scanned this set of papers. I certainly hope it still exists in the archives as I have about 3 pages missing.

If Edison was able to go to celluloid four years earlier(1908)we wouldn't have the problem with the wax 100 some years later.But,as you know,Tom had to make do with what he had.edisonplayer

George P., Thanks for the info about those 2-Minute Black Edison Flat rimmed Non Labeled cylinders. I had absolutely no idea that those were ever "Gold Moulded". I had always considered those cylinders to just be a darker color variation of the Earlier Edison Brown waxes..

Do you know the exact year that Edison went to the Labeled, Angled Rimmed "Gold Moulded" cylinders??
Was it 1902, 1903 ?? Perhaps I should take a look in the 1st volume (1903) of the Edison Phonograph Monthly. It may mention it in there. It is the correct timeframe.

Thanks again, George P.



"Tom had to make do with what he had."-edisonplayer


I beg to differ on this above statement...

Edison was not only cheap, but he was very stubborn as well. Edison could have well licensed Lambert's Celluloid Patents in 1901, but he refused, and instead, He sued Lambert, of which Lambert won, but eventually put Lambert out of Business due to the expense in legal fees. Along with this, Edison thought it a personal insult to pay for licensing for a piece of media for a device that he himself had invented. It was also a pride thing. It took him 12 years, but Edison finally capitulated and gave into celluloid in 1912. Blue Amberols came out the very next year.


)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

NEFaurora wrote:George P., Thanks for the info about those 2-Minute Black Edison Flat rimmed Non Labeled cylinders. I had absolutely no idea that those were ever "Gold Moulded". I had always considered those cylinders to just be a darker color variation of the Earlier Edison Brown waxes..

Do you know the exact year that Edison went to the Labeled, Angled Rimmed "Gold Moulded" cylinders??
Was it 1902, 1903 ?? Perhaps I should take a look in the 1st volume (1903) of the Edison Phonograph Monthly. It may mention it in there. It is the correct timeframe.

Thanks again, George P.

You're welcome. As I wrote in my earlier posting, July 1904 was the first announcement in The Edison Phonograph Monthly of the engraved titles on angled rims.

NEFaurora wrote: It took him 12 years, but Edison finally capitulated and gave into celluloid in 1912. Blue Amberols came out the very next year.

Actually, Blue Amberols were introduced in October 1912.

George P.

George your date seems right. What would be interesting though is how long after the introduction of the titled end molded cylinder though did they still produce non titled, flat end Gold Moulded records? If you read the production note sheet above from October of 1904, they were making both titled, and non titled, moulded cylinders at this time.

Very Interesting!

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer