The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Jerry B. wrote:I had lunch will a collector friend recently. When I mentioned the Forum he immediately became critical of Forum members in general. He said it is common for collectors to see a craigslist item that is priced really low so they do one of two things. If the item is a long distance away they contact the seller and suggest that they raise the price. If the craigslist item is close they will call in hopes of making a purchase. If it's sold they might offer more money to help get the seller closer to market value for the item.

Would you ever call a craigslist seller and inform them that their asking price is a fraction of the true market value?

If an item (generally speaking) is listed at an incredibly low price, I might be tempted to contact the seller and let them know that it's a mistake, but I might also be tempted to do just the same for the opposite (priced unrealistically high).

I've said on this forum before: This isn't out of a desire to screw a potential buyer out of knowingly taking advantage of an uninformed seller, but from a desire to possibly help some poor widow that's just trying to liquidate her late husband's possessions, because she's on Social Security and only receives $1000 a month (as was the case with my own mother.) Sometimes every penny can make a difference (I guess I'm just "old-fashioned" like that -- thanks, Ma! ).

BUT, it would have to be a very large disparity to push me into actually doing anything.

Jerry B. wrote:If you called on a craigslist item and were told the item was promised to a buyer, would you make a higher offer and justify that by saying you are helping the seller get closer to real market value?

Any comments would be appreciated. Jerry Blais

I've called (or emailed, etc.) on listings only to find out the item "has been sold", and if I really want a crack at it, I'll tell the seller to contact me if anything changes, but I would never try to start a "bidding war" for anything. I just think that's uncouth. I've had this happen to me locally more than once when trying to buy something listed on Craigslist (not, however, with antique talking machines), and I would never do the same to someone else.

And, in all fairness, I've actually had sellers try to start a bidding war between myself and the original buyer! At this point, I tell them "good luck with the sale".

The only negative experience I've ever had here was with an individual that tried to sabotage my purchasing an item from a public estate sale, because of my intention to possibly use it for parts. Funny thing is, it worked out great anyway. In fact the experience caused me to fully restore the item (and develop a process in order to replicate the grille cloth I needed), instead of religating it to yet another bone-yard piece. No harm, no foul.

Generally speaking: I think we have one of the best, and most generous, groups of people I've ever had the pleasure of being associated with.

Just my $.02 worth of babble; it's a dog-eat-dog world out there after all.

Best,
Fran

The only circumstances in which I would volunteer information to an eBayer (I never even look at Craigslist let alone use it) is if they REQUEST it in their listing. For whatever reason, some sellers do not know much about what they are selling, and if they ASK for help in identifying a machine I see no harm in giving it.

What I will not do is give valuations, although I am sometimes asked to do so. Valuation is all about comparison, and if someone is selling an item outside their field of expertise I advise them to use the eBay "Sold" listings for similar items as a guide.

Jerry B. wrote:I had lunch will a collector friend recently. When I mentioned the Forum he immediately became critical of Forum members in general. He said it is common for collectors to see a craigslist item that is priced really low so they do one of two things. If the item is a long distance away they contact the seller and suggest that they raise the price. If the craigslist item is close they will call in hopes of making a purchase. If it's sold they might offer more money to help get the seller closer to market value for the item.

Would you ever call a craigslist seller and inform them that their asking price is a fraction of the true market value?

If you called on a craigslist item and were told the item was promised to a buyer, would you make a higher offer and justify that by saying you are helping the seller get closer to real market value?

Any comments would be appreciated. Jerry Blais

Keep in Mind This Post Concerned Craigslist Behaviors:

The behaviors that you mentioned in your first paragraph are what I would consider epidemic in this hobby. I have eluded to this very issue in a few of my earlier posts, and have been met with somewhat harsh criticism for doing so. Although a small few may fess up, of course those that routinely behave such as this will remain silent. Additionally, the behaviors that you mention merely scratch the surface of what goes on. I have spoken to virtually hundreds of folks who have utilized Craigslist as a means of dispersing something phonograph related. Whether the nature of the sale is simply a "post it and sell it" item, or the post is a notification of an upcoming tag sale or auction (pictures showing items), the overwhelming majority of the sellers have told me that the calls/emails/texts that they have received is not short of a circus. In addition, at every one of these Craigslist-promoted events that I have attended, beit an auction or tag sale, I have encountered aggressive behaviors from collectors who do not get their way. All the way from overhearing the seller on the phone with a collector-caller who is virtually begging them to sell the item to them ahead of the timedc event...to collectors that are lined up behind me who become pissy because you will not "sell" your place in line to them, and they leave the site and make calls or messages to the seller either begging them to sell to them pre-event, or, as you mentioned in your post, giving their "appraisal" of the item in an attempt to get the seller to ratchet the price up - ie, if they can't be the benefactor of a bargain, then nobody else will either. Then, there are those that, after they witness that you have beat them to an item, will approach you wanting to purchase it from you. Once again...on comes the aggression. If you are not interested in selling it, they get pissy. If you offer it to them, they [Fifi] about the price that you quote. And on, and on! I have heard virtual horror stories coming from innocent folks who put something phono related on Craigslist regarding responses they have received from potential buyers. And, many times...over common items. I could actually go on and on about this topic, but I think you get the point.
I am, by no means, saying that there are not dignified collectors out there. This thread was in response to specific, greedy, childish behaviors discussed initially by Jerry. To think for a moment that these behaviors are isolated and few is a denial of reality. As such, these same primitive behaviors bleed over into every arena of the hobby when it pertains to potetial competitive acquisition of something.

Hailey wrote:I have heard virtual horror stories coming from innocent folks who put something phono related on Craigslist regarding responses they have received from potential buyers. And, many times...over common items.

That's an interesting statement right there and a very true one. A few years ago, I bought a very nice machine about an hour away from me. I called the seller up and spoke with her for a few minutes and she had told me the calls she was getting were from people wanting to know what records it had, would she sell them separately, what does the key look like, how is this, what else is there, blah blah blah. She couldn't believe it nor did she want to bother. I set up an appointment to see the machine the next day and drove down. I had asked no questions because her price was fair and I knew there were other things with it that to me would just be a surprise. I spent a bit there, loaded the machine records, accessories and other fun stuff and took out my money. I handed over her asking price and she handed me back $50 and sais "thank you for your honesty and not being a pain like everyone else was". Sometimes being ethical and honest with someone pays off, it has for me many times and in others, it has bitten me in the behind, I guess it's par for the course.

Sean

Jerry B. wrote:I had lunch will a collector friend recently. When I mentioned the Forum he immediately became critical of Forum members in general. He said it is common for collectors to see a craigslist item that is priced really low so they do one of two things. If the item is a long distance away they contact the seller and suggest that they raise the price. If the craigslist item is close they will call in hopes of making a purchase. If it's sold they might offer more money to help get the seller closer to market value for the item.

Dear Jerry, I see the point, but I really can't see why this should have anything to do with "forum members" specifically. As said by others, there is people who seem to be born just to annoy all others, but honestly I see no reason why they should have any tendency to gather around a forum. All the contrary, this forum as well as many others IMHO demonstrate that, in average, whoever subscribes to a forum is a man/woman open to dialogue, who likes to learn from others and who likes to share his/her knowledge when he/she can do so.

I'd rather say that the kind of people portraited by this "collector friend" of yours is a selfish, egotistic collector who lives segregated among his "treasures" (the character of Gollum comes to mind...) and would possibly destroy all that he can't own, so that others would not enjoy it. I can hardly recognize in this portrait the average subscriber to a forum.

I don't want to jump to any conclusion about this man you mentioned, but it seems to me that his blaming of forum members was unsubstantiated on his side. As it is, it seems no more than a personal rant. All right: he happens to dislike forums (or perhaps the internet as a whole), but I hardly see any connection with the fact that Craigslist's prices are not such a bargain unseen by all others as he would like them to be. He just has to submit to the fact that nothing goes unnoticed on eBay, as well as on Craigslist.

Would you ever call a craigslist seller and inform them that their asking price is a fraction of the true market value?

No. If a seller doesn't take the time to do some basic research, it's no business of mine.

What I WILL do is click on the PROHIBITED jump when I see a Frankenphone or Crap-o-phone being pawned off as the real deal. After a certain number of flags the ad will be taken down, and the seller will be directed to "Flag Help" to find out why.

If you called on a craigslist item and were told the item was promised to a buyer, would you make a higher offer and justify that by saying you are helping the seller get closer to real market value?


No. I think "first come/first serve" applies to internet transactions, as it does to in-store purchases, etc.

OF

Dear Jerry, I see the point, but I really can't see why this should have anything to do with "forum members" specifically.

Marco, you are absolutely correct. I made that point to may friend and his reply indicated that callers from the far corners of the country indicated they were members of a national forum. Of course the forum could have been something as large as APS to any number of other organizations. I'm sure when he heard the words "national forum" he assumed The Talking Machine Forum. In truth I suspect our Forum represents is a fairly small percentage of the total phono collector population.

I have enjoyed numerous good craigslist experiences and two questionable ones. There was a Regina Hexaphone project advertised on a nearby craigslist for a very low price. I replied and said I was a cash buyer. Days went by without a reply so I assumed I was late to the opportunity and didn't give it much thought. Over a week later the seller called and asked if I was still interested. When I gave a positive reply she said I could take a look but the price was ten times her original asking price. She said she received dozens of emails from all over the county with long distance appraisals. I did buy the machine.

The other less than satisfactory experience was over an empty Victrola XX cabinet for sale in Vancouver, BC on craigslist. Once again it was a low priced item. I called and was the first party interested and asked the seller to consider it sold. She could tell by my number that I was not local. I assured her that I would call a friend and arrange for a timely cash payment. I called my friend and he was happy to help. He called the seller and made arrangements for two days later and called me back to say the cabinet was mine. When he called again to confirm the appointment, she replied that someone else had come and paid cash.

Jerry Blais

I might be the only one here that admits this but I don't buy complete machines on EBay or Craigs List any more unless I can physically drive to see it within a hours drive tops. And haul it home myself. Most of my machines are found by hunting the many outdoor and indoor flea markets, antique shops, and town wide yard sales in my area. (big town wide yard sale this weekend) I also buy at the Wayne show here in New Jersey and from members of this Forum of course. (parts included) I do use EBay for finding parts and records but stay away from complete machines because of the many past shipping problems I have had by sellers not knowing how to pack a machine correctly (damage) Part of why I have enjoyed this hobby for the past 35+ years is the "hunt". The physical "hunt"... Without the "hunt" I would get bored very quickly.

I'm with George on all counts... dittoes.

I have had dealings with many different collectors over the years and only one has given me problems. Someone with a large collection (1,000+ machines) and a large case of greed. It wasn't even regarding a purchase from this person, but rather the disdain and venom displayed because of several fortunate purchases that I got from others.

One case in particular involved a good collector friend of mine who passed away. I helped his son settle the estate at no charge, helped him find homes for a number of machines, drove 200 miles to get paperwork for the estate on several occasions, etc. As a favor in kind, his son offered me several items - a cylinder cabinet, Edison Standard and several horns at a reasonable price (not determined by me, but I knew they were priced to be a favor for my help).

When I told the other collector about them, he accused me of being an ambulance chaser and taking advantage of the situation (which he felt should have been his entitlement, since he had sold several things to my friend), without having any knowledge of how I actually helped the son avoid excess estate taxes, took care of a lot of paperwork for him and established a lifetime income from a portion of the proceeds that were not taxed. The other collector had absolutely no idea of my friends' financial situation, so his comments were totally greed based and to top it off, the items I got wouldn't have made one iota of difference to this guy who probably has 50 Edison Standards.

This same upstanding guy who was critical of my purchase had just bought a Victor Humpback II from some guy who was referred to him for $25.00 - no need to mention that he didn't refuse it because it was under priced...

Anyway, you can't take this stuff with you, so no need to get worked up over it. Your favorite machine was once someones' newly purchased dream...

Alas the world has disagreeable people. I try to follow the line in Desiderata: "Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit." Life is too short to give them any time or energy.

Clay