The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Thank you Steve. I couldn't remember if it was an a or b & didn't think the 130 was quite so early.

David, I think the term gramophone is used for a disc machine throughout the world. As far as I know it's only USA that calls them phonographs too.

MordEth wrote:

bart1927 wrote:English is not my mother tongue, and I´m not always familiar with the "gramophone" terms used on this board. What exactly is an escutcheon?

Bart,

While I am sure that everyone knows that I am no expert, I can at least help you with part of the terminology.

Here is an escutcheon (although not, I am sure, from this machine):

These are usually seen (in phonographs) where the crank goes into the machine. The term is most commonly used in plumbing, I think.

And ‘gramophone’ is another (primarily British?) word for phonograph.

Hope this helps.

— MordEth

Thanks for the explanation. So I guess Steve was just saying that something didn't look right about the escutcheon, I thought he/she meant I bought some pieced together gramophone. The escutcheon does indeed look a little strange, now that I compared it more closely with some photographs I found on the Internet and a book I have. On the Ebay-pictures there is a little more space around the crank. If upon arrival it turns out to be incomplete or a reproduction I will contact the seller, and find out if he can send me a replacement.

Gramophone is not just another word for phonograph. A gramophone plays records, a phonograph plays cylinders. In America they call them disc phonographs and cylinder phonographs, I believe.

gramophoneshane wrote:David, I think the term gramophone is used for a disc machine throughout the world. As far as I know it's only USA that calls them phonographs too.

Shane,

Sadly, there are so many possible terms that I confuse who uses what, but you are probably right (since in German—one of the few other languages I know the term—it is ‘Grammophon’). Basically all of the terms were trade names, also, as I understand it.

To quote Wikipedia:

United Kingdom

In British English, gramophone came to refer to any sound reproducing machine using disc records, as disc records were popularized in the UK by the Gramophone Company. The term phonograph is usually restricted to devices playing cylinder records. The term gramophone would generally be taken to refer to a wind-up machine, and from the 1960s onwards the more common term would be record player or turntable as part of a system that also played cassettes and included radio. Such a system would be called a hi-fi or stereo (most systems being stereophonic by the mid-1960s). Gramophone took its name from the Greek words “γραμμή” (grami, line) and “φωνή” (phoni, voice). Like other, similar devices the marketers of which wanted to express the notion of “sound” in the devices’ names, they also used the same part of the Greek word (e.g., telephone, microphone etc.).

United States

In American English, phonograph was the most common generic term for any early sound reproducing machine, until the second half of the 20th century, when it became archaic and record player became the universal term for disc record machines. In contemporary American usage phonograph most usually refers to disc record machines or turntables, the most common type of analogue recording from the 1910s on.

Gramophone was a U.S. brand name, and as such in the same category as Victrola, Zon-o-phone, Graphophone and Graphonola referring to specific brands of sound reproducing machines. (Similarly, in German, das Grammophon (literally "the Gramophone") was the most common generic term for any sound reproducer using grooved records, hence the brand name Deutsche Grammophon.) Emile Berliner’s Gramophone was considered a type of phonograph.

The brand name Gramophone was not used in the USA after 1901, and the word fell out of use there, though it has survived in its nickname form, Grammy, as the title of the Grammy Awards. The Grammy trophy itself is a small rendering of a gramophone.

Modern amplifier equipment still labels the input that accepts the output from a modern magnetic pickup cartridge as the “phono” input (abbreviated from “phonograph”).

Australia

In Australian English, record player was the term; turntable was a more technical term; gramophone was restricted to the old mechanical (i.e., wind-up) players; and phonograph was used as in British English.

I believe that this is at least mostly correct, but keep in mind that my knowledge is limited. They don’t go into the rest of the world, so...your guess is as good as mine. From what I remember of seeing phonographs in anime, the Japanese use the American English terminology. But that hardly is a definitive sampling.

...although it must be true if you see it in something someone drew, right?

I am still a lot more knowledgeable about modern audio equipment (although everyone here is doing a good job of remedying that).

— MordEth

Bart

Yes, that's an escutcheon where the winder goes through the case.

I'm glad you also see what I'm seeing now - I seriously doubt that it is the right one there or at least it's been either worn out or altered in some way?

I tend not to believe any Ebay descriptions anymore (or dealer descriptions in general). I'd love a Euro, Dollar or Pound for everytime I've read something is "original" or "complete" or "completely untouched" etc etc. I've never seen a "mint" machine either. I'm not trying to worry you and I'm sure your dealer friend is a genuine sort but all dealers do tend to overlook "minor details" from time to time and that might be what's happened here.

Also, check that cloth. If it isn't original, the machine is worth much less.

I hope it all works out okay.

Sorry, I didn't realize you didn't understand the terminology.

Steve wrote:Sorry, I didn't realize you didn't understand the terminology.

No apologies needed. I'm here to learn!

Yes, the escutcheon does look a bit odd...too big a hole and new...but I should think if it isn't "correct" I am sure an appropriate one should be able to be found without too much trouble.

On the cloth covering the horn opening....with the type of cloth used by HMV during this period it is impossible to tell from a photo if it is correct. In real life the cloth is a fine weave and has a gold-ish appearance...however it is almost impossible to photograph it to show it as this. Most photo's come out with it looking almost black...I guess it just must be the weave of the fabric! Let us know when it arrives what the fabric is like and also the escutcheon too.

Nevetheless, its still a nice machine.

RJ
EDIT: here is a link to a picture I took of the type of cloth it should be. Apologies for the odd angle but I was trying to get the cloth to show in its proper colour!

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq28 ... HMV014.jpg

N/A

Well, today I got my gramophone (or phonograph, for our American members), and once I again you have proven that I'm a complete novice on the subject of talking machines. Steve was right, the cloth isn't original. In fact, it isn't even cloth at all! It's some kind of metal grid. Along the edges there are some leftovers of a fabric that once was the original cloth. It matches the pictures you provided. The escutcheon isn't correct either. I compared it to a picture of the HMV 130 (and several other HMV gramophones) in a Dutch book on talking machines that I have, and they are certainly not the same. A second problem is that when I play a record I hear a very loud resonance, that comes from my reproducer. If I put my finger on the stylus bar (that's what they call it, right? The thing you put the metal needle in, and is attached to the middle of the diaphragm?) the resonance decreases. Furthermore I noticed it could play no more than 2.5 record sides on a full wind-up (and it`s a double spring motor, right?) and during playback I sometimes hear a loud thump from the inside. I contacted the seller, and I await his response.

bart1927 wrote:A second problem is that when I play a record I hear a very loud resonance, that comes from my reproducer. If I put my finger on the stylus bar (that's what they call it, right? The thing you put the metal needle in, and is attached to the middle of the diaphragm?) the resonance decreases. Furthermore I noticed it could play no more than 2.5 record sides on a full wind-up (and it`s a double spring motor, right?) and during playback I sometimes hear a loud thumb from the inside. I contacted the seller, and I await his response.

Aside from the missing grille-cloth, and incorrect escutcheon, you probably didn't do too badly.

The bumping motor springs should be attended to ASAP, before playing too many records. I'm sure many of the members here can give you some repair tips, or can recommend a shop that will clean and lubricate the motor for a nominal charge.

As for the resonance you hear when playing a loud record, that may be caused by an incorrectly adjusted needle bar pivot mounting. The needle bar should be able to move freely in the direction required to track the record, but there should be no movement in the opposite direction, which is known as "side play."

If you feel comfortable in doing this, you could try readjusting the pivot, following these instructions, to see if there's any improvement:

Thanks for the advice. I will try it out. I contacted the seller, but unfortunately he refused all responsibility by pointing to the last line of his Ebay description that said "what you see is wat you get". The fact that the same description also said "completely original" was apparently overruled by the last line. Unfortunately I didn't pay him with PayPal (because he resides in the same country as I do, the Netherlands a bank tranfer was the easiest route) so I probably won't get my money back. If I had been dealing with somebody I barely know I wouldn't have taken any chances, but I have met this man several times in person, in fact I bought a gramophone from him before!

I probably paid way to much for this machine, as it turnned out. EUR 275 equals $ 350, for a gramophone with a metal grill instead of the original cloth, wrong escutcheon, and an engine and soundbox that probably need a complete overhaul.

I will let you know how things are going to proceed. I won't let the seller get away with this so easily, but I still have hope we can come to an agreement so we can keep things civilised.