Some sellers have all the nerve.

[gramophoneshane]

Brian,
It's not always possible to obtain the postage cost until after the auction has ended. A few times I've been told that the item will have to be packed & a quote obtained before they can tell you the cost.
I can understand charging for (new) boxes & packing materials, but I've never understood these "handling" fees. I think thats just pure tax free greed.
If it took me half an hour to pack a horn, I certainly wouldn't charge anyone for the privilege. I wouldn't think my time was that valuable as to charge someone for it, especially when I know I'm getting a better price for the item than I would anywhere else. If my time was that precious & packing was such a strenuous hassle, I'd list the item as pick-up only.
To me that's like advertising a machine in the local paper for $100, but then wanting $120 from the buyer because I want to charge him for the time it took me to answer his phone call & show & demonstrate the machine when he came to look at it

[larryh]

oooh, oooh, I want in!

Having been an eBay member of ebay since July of 1999, and having sold a grand total of 4 items in that time, I can tell you that it was a pain in the a$$ dealing with packing and shipping. I concluded that it just was not worth my time to list something, deal with the transaction, pack, ship, ... So I can understand why some would charge handling fees.

Having said that, I totally agree with Larry. Some shipping and handling charges are way excessive and just not worth it. I see a lot of good deals that I pass on, and many don't even sell, because of the high shipping cost.

Vote with your feet.

I agree totally. packing, packing properly, and shipping a couple things, let alone several things, can be time-consuming and a major pain - I've spent up to 30 minutes packaging external horn victor machines that I've sold. it's nice when a buyer can appreciate that.

and I also agree that some sellers' postage charges can be excessive. but complaining or ranting about it after the fact doesn't seem to accomplish anything, which is why I just don't get these threads. when you buy things by mail, the cost of getting them to you should be factored into the total cost of the thing - and if that total cost is more than you'd pay if the thing was right there in front of you at a store, then pass on it. and if you're buying or bidding on things that will be sent, you should clarify upfront before you buy what the postage costs will be. if they're too high or you feel that the seller (the present owner of the thing) is being unreasonable (and as the owner, he can pretty much charge what he wants - I don't care what you say about ebay's limitations on postage fees, they don't apply in all situations and can be circumvented easily enough any way), then don't bid/buy. I really don't see what the big deal is beyond that, fixed income, mega wealthy, or whatever your financial situation is - if you can't afford it, you can't afford it, and if you don't agree with a seller's charges, philosophies, whatever, on principal, then just don't do business with him/her.

Here's the deal, I wrote the seller before hand when I had selected only a couple things and ask if I could save by combining shipping, he responded I could. When I sent the invoice I ask it be changed to reflect that, however it came back with the reply that he had to have that much to ship them so I paid it even though I knew better. Then he ask for the additional charge of 3.00 which is why I complained. So far he has not responded to my complaint and I assume he got the message that he already had the cost more than covered. I don't just buy normally and then feel taken, I always inquire as to if they will ship it media if they have it listed for a higher type shipping and most do say they will, only rarely do they say they won't and then I normally pass unless like Sean mentioned its just something I have to have.

I spend a great deal of effort to see that things make it though the mail, often spending way more time than the item made if I considered the time and supplies, so I am well aware of the sellers problem, but that even makes me more aware when I see things like this or the 15.99 shipping on one record.

Oh yes and the latter also mandates that you pay extra for insurance as a requirement. I think they also have it more than covered. I wonder what ebay policy will do to actually tackle this issue as for most of us it wants to say that 4.00 is the maximum charge for a record and allows no handling or insurance charge. When they mandate the buyer guarantee the item to the buyer are they going to up the allowed or recommended amount to take that in to consideration, I haven't gotten an answer to that one as yet. Its pretty obvious as someone else pointed out that ebay is rigged to not rock the boat if you sell lots of things consistently but if your a smaller dealer then your screwed. I have reported the 15.98 shipping price four times now and so far its still coming though with that shipping so someone is making a decision to allow it on ebays end.

[estott]

A bit off topic, but I've always been a bit shocked at the amount of sellers who use Priority Mail envelopes and boxes as a source of free packing material. I've received boxes where instead of styronuts or newspaper the cushioning was several dozen unused mailing envelopes crumples into balls. People will do things like this and then scream when the cost of stamps goes up.

[brianu]

oooh, oooh, I want in!

Having been an eBay member of ebay since July of 1999, and having sold a grand total of 4 items in that time, I can tell you that it was a pain in the a$$ dealing with packing and shipping. I concluded that it just was not worth my time to list something, deal with the transaction, pack, ship, ... So I can understand why some would charge handling fees.

Having said that, I totally agree with Larry. Some shipping and handling charges are way excessive and just not worth it. I see a lot of good deals that I pass on, and many don't even sell, because of the high shipping cost.

Vote with your feet.

I agree totally. packing, packing properly, and shipping a couple things, let alone several things, can be time-consuming and a major pain - I've spent up to 30 minutes packaging external horn victor machines that I've sold. it's nice when a buyer can appreciate that.

and I also agree that some sellers' postage charges can be excessive. but complaining or ranting about it after the fact doesn't seem to accomplish anything, which is why I just don't get these threads. when you buy things by mail, the cost of getting them to you should be factored into the total cost of the thing - and if that total cost is more than you'd pay if the thing was right there in front of you at a store, then pass on it. and if you're buying or bidding on things that will be sent, you should clarify upfront before you buy what the postage costs will be. if they're too high or you feel that the seller (the present owner of the thing) is being unreasonable (and as the owner, he can pretty much charge what he wants - I don't care what you say about ebay's limitations on postage fees, they don't apply in all situations and can be circumvented easily enough any way), then don't bid/buy. I really don't see what the big deal is beyond that, fixed income, mega wealthy, or whatever your financial situation is - if you can't afford it, you can't afford it, and if you don't agree with a seller's charges, philosophies, whatever, on principal, then just don't do business with him/her.

Here's the deal, I wrote the seller before hand when I had selected only a couple things and ask if I could save by combining shipping, he responded I could. When I sent the invoice I ask it be changed to reflect that, however it came back with the reply that he had to have that much to ship them so I paid it even though I knew better. Then he ask for the additional charge of 3.00 which is why I complained. So far he has not responded to my complaint and I assume he got the message that he already had the cost more than covered. I don't just buy normally and then feel taken, I always inquire as to if they will ship it media if they have it listed for a higher type shipping and most do say they will, only rarely do they say they won't and then I normally pass unless like Sean mentioned its just something I have to have.

I spend a great deal of effort to see that things make it though the mail, often spending way more time than the item made if I considered the time and supplies, so I am well aware of the sellers problem, but that even makes me more aware when I see things like this or the 15.99 shipping on one record.

Oh yes and the latter also mandates that you pay extra for insurance as a requirement. I think they also have it more than covered. I wonder what ebay policy will do to actually tackle this issue as for most of us it wants to say that 4.00 is the maximum charge for a record and allows no handling or insurance charge. When they mandate the buyer guarantee the item to the buyer are they going to up the allowed or recommended amount to take that in to consideration, I haven't gotten an answer to that one as yet. Its pretty obvious as someone else pointed out that ebay is rigged to not rock the boat if you sell lots of things consistently but if your a smaller dealer then your screwed. I have reported the 15.98 shipping price four times now and so far its still coming though with that shipping so someone is making a decision to allow it on ebay's end.

I see. well that doesn't seem right that after telling you he'd combine postage, he instead charged you the full uncombined amount. when I say it doesn't SEEM right, though, I mean based on the fact that I don't know the particulars... that I have no idea what the cost of postage actually was for the seller when everything was packed and boxed, and hopefully done properly to safely protect such a quantity of records.

good luck though, getting anywhere with ebay. in all honesty, I can't imagine that they'd see such complaints - however well-founded - as anything more than nickel and dime stuff that they just don't have the time for... be that as it may, however wrong that might be, I just wouldn't take it personally. and maybe in the future, try to pin down before the fact how much the combined postage will be... additionally, you can always cancel the transactions if the shipping cost quoted after the auction ends is excessive... you can then cite that as the reason for canceling the transaction, and ebay will just send both parties their separate ways. I did this once. and it certainly would seem to have taken care of your problem here.

[brianu]

I try to avoid dealing with sellers whose selling conditions are unacceptable to me. This is a matter of principle as well as judicious spending.

Let's look at two hypothetical auctions:

Seller #1 is offering a copy of the very hot dance tune "I screw the shellac-buying public," medley fox-trot by the PayPal Novelty Orchestra with vocal refrain by the Ebay Male Quartet. The opening bid is $2.00 with $20.00 shipping charges. Total is $22.00.

Seller #2 is offering the same record for $21.00 with $4.00 shipping. Total is $25.00.

It would cost me more to buy the record from the seller with reasonable shipping charges. I would rather spend $3.00 extra and deal with an upright seller than save $3.00 and deal with an unprincipled seller.



Rocky

while that's certainly your choice, rocky, with all due respect - especially if you're trying to get something as inexpensively as possible - then you're really doing little more than biting off your nose to spite your face. and when you're talking about principles, I don't see how it's unprincipled for a person to charge whatever they want for postage and handling so long as they advertise it upfront - granted, if they don't let you know until after the fact, then I'd take issue with it... but again, all you've got to do is just not follow through with the auction (ebay has an option where you as a buyer can terminate a transaction because of excessive shipping fees) or sale and not do business with the person.

[brianu]

Brian,
It's not always possible to obtain the postage cost until after the auction has ended. A few times I've been told that the item will have to be packed & a quote obtained before they can tell you the cost.
I can understand charging for (new) boxes & packing materials, but I've never understood these "handling" fees. I think thats just pure tax free greed.
If it took me half an hour to pack a horn, I certainly wouldn't charge anyone for the privilege. I wouldn't think my time was that valuable as to charge someone for it, especially when I know I'm getting a better price for the item than I would anywhere else. If my time was that precious & packing was such a strenuous hassle, I'd list the item as pick-up only.
To me that's like advertising a machine in the local paper for $100, but then wanting $120 from the buyer because I want to charge him for the time it took me to answer his phone call & show & demonstrate the machine when he came to look at it

there's no point in arguing this, but in all honesty, time is more important to some people than others... especially if they can be doing something else more worthwhile or making money doing something else in the time that's otherwise being taken away from them. even in the most banal of analogies, if you've got two buyers who contact you about buying something you've got for sale, and one wants to stop by with cash and inspect before he possibly buys, whereas the other wants you to snap additional photos of the motor or from this angle or that and then email them before discussing things by phone, which one would you prioritize (especially if they both contacted you pretty much at the same time)? the one who would take less of your time?

and if you advertise a machine in a paper for 100 (even though this really isn't a great comparison to postage/handling charges for online auctions/sales), then charge another 20 when a buyer shows up (based on your time to take the call and demonstrate the machine), then I'd think you're not being totally upfront about your price. nevertheless, that would still make the total cost of the machine 120 rather than 100... and there's always room for haggling and negotiation - buyer offers 80, seller still gets 100. whatever... I just don't see the big deal in all of this so long as things are upfront. there is nothing unprincipled about a seller charging what he wants for HIS merchandise and HIS time... if you don't like it, throw some foul words at him if it makes you feel better and move on. with all the time and energy expended in whining about it, you could probably find the same thing elsewhere for less.

[EdisonSquirrel]

and when you're talking about principles, I don't see how it's unprincipled for a person to charge whatever they want for postage and handling so long as they advertise it upfront -[/quote]


In my opinion, it is unprincipled for a seller to charge an outrageous price for shipping and handling, as the supposed reason for the seller to engage in the transaction in the first place is to make a profit on the sale of the item, not on the shipping. I would find it very unprincipled, and probably very comical as well, if a seller indicated upfront that he would charge $100 shipping and handling to mail me one steel needle.

In order to mitigate the element of unprincipled behavior from such a transaction, the seller would need to indicate in plain language that it is his intent to profit financially from the excessive shipping charges.



Rocky

[gramophoneshane]

especially if they can be doing something else more worthwhile or making money doing something else in the time that's otherwise being taken away from them.

I think if this was true, they probably wouldn't be bothering with ebay in the first place

[brianu]

especially if they can be doing something else more worthwhile or making money doing something else in the time that's otherwise being taken away from them.

I think if this was true, they probably wouldn't be bothering with ebay in the first place

ha. that hadn't occurred to me.

In my opinion, it is unprincipled for a seller to charge an outrageous price for shipping and handling, as the supposed reason for the seller to engage in the transaction in the first place is to make a profit on the sale of the item, not on the shipping. I would find it very unprincipled, and probably very comical as well, if a seller indicated upfront that he would charge $100 shipping and handling to mail me one steel needle.

In order to mitigate the element of unprincipled behavior from such a transaction, the seller would need to indicate in plain language that it is his intent to profit financially from the excessive shipping charges.

re. the $100 to ship a needle... I don't believe stupidity, cluelessness or ridiculousness is necessarily the equivalent to unprincipled. now we're just getting into semantics.

but if it's truly your opinion that a properly principled seller would either only charge (to mail you something you purchased) what the post office charges him for the stamp (so to speak) unless that seller disclosed that he intended to profit financially from the excessive shipping charges... then, well, that's your opinion. humbly, I just completely disagree. but that's just my opinion. my point in all of this, however, is that principles, no principles, rich, poor, whatever, there's no point in whining about excessive postage fees, just move on and don't do business with the person charging them. step down from the soap box and throw the effort instead into finding what you want elsewhere.

[larryh]

Brianu,

I can see by your post and mine that we have a lot in common, we like to debate the issue for the sake of debating which can be fun!

As to the postage and so forth, I am well aware of what it cost to ship records and see that they get there, (most of he time). If your at all familar with media shipping you should realize that it is a pretty straight forward thing to weight the records and add several pounds more for good box and padding. Which is exactly what I did with the amount I had purchased from him and added five pounds for the ample protection, plus I even added five more sets than I bought just to give him a wide leeway as to what them might weigh, as he had stated they were "heavy" vinyl sets. My total for all the sets plus the five pounds for the carton from the media chart was a little over seven dollars, a far cry from twenty he wanted.

As a follow up I will say that I did receive a message, well two to be exact and he has changed his mind about the shipping and the extra for insurance and will be forwarding me a refund for the excess charges.. So it pays to ask in most cases. If it would have been a few dollars off or if he hadn't even ask for the extra for insurance I might have left it go, glad now I didn't.