The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

According to The Columbia Record, the Commercial Graphophone was re-named the Dictaphone effective May 1908.

George P.

Thank You Richard & George and anyone else who tried to help me gather information.

Larry Strong

I often find myself biting my tongue (or my fingers) as I read some of the questions forum members ask. I occasionally post a link describing the contents of the eight books I co-authored, but I don't wish to come across as hawking my wares. But I see folks spending substantial amounts on antique phonographs, and afterward asking questions that they really should know before writing the check. I don't get it.

This thread deals with a machine whose background was pretty thoroughly covered in an article that appeared in the March 2014 issue of The Antique Phonograph. Each issue of this journal (and its predecessor, The Sound Box) is indexed on the Antique Phonograph Society's web site. That's 50 issues with 10-12 articles in them. Members of the APS can now do a search of all those issues - plus about a dozen other publications - right on the web site and bring up all pertinent available sources for their query. And yet, the number of forum members far exceeds the number of APS members. Many of us are bewildered by this.

My point is that there's a lot of information available, but it's not all free. Still, it's much, much less expensive than being uninformed. I'm afraid I've learned this first-hand on a few occasions. It's also a lot of fun to learn about the background of these wonderful talking machines and records.

Okay - end of soapbox.

It's the season of giving, so below is the PDF of the article that appeared in The Antique Phonograph discussing the Commercial Graphophone. Each issue contains similar articles on a wide variety of topics at all levels of collecting. If this piques your interest, perhaps you'd care to try a membership in the Antique Phonograph Society for 2017. You can join here:

http://www.antiquephono.org/join-us-home/

And here's the article that's pertinent to this thread:
Happy Holidays to all - -

George P.

phonogfp wrote:I often find myself biting my tongue (or my fingers) as I read some of the questions forum members ask. I occasionally post a link describing the contents of the eight books I co-authored, but I don't wish to come across as hawking my wares. But I see folks spending substantial amounts on antique phonographs, and afterward asking questions that they really should know before writing the check. I don't get it.

Dear George,

although I understand your point and agree with it, I also believe that many purchases are made under pressure and with no time to decide. Examples could be an antique shop visited while on travel five thousand miles from home, or an item that seems interesting and on which other fifty people are bidding frantically. There is often no time to gather sufficient information, and a risk limit must be set. Personally I never buy anything that way (how far you travel, you will not see such things as antique shops selling gramophones in Italy) but I understand why people sometimes does.

Concerning your suggestion to buy books or to subscribe to an association, aside from the fact that I don't have words to praise enough the books written by mr. Fabrizio and you, I also don't have the knowledge to assess wether the APS you suggest is "THE" gramophone association in the US, or just one of the many. Speaking of tube radio collecting, which is a world that I know much better, I can say that there are literally dozens and dozens of relevant (and I mean really relevant) associations, most in conflict with each other. Should I subscribe to all of those, my wages would be instantly gone. I decided nonetheless to subscribe to at least one (Antique Radio Magazine) that prints a nice but also very expensive magazine (equivalent to the price of one average tube radio set per year). I enjoy their articles and I've also written some for the magazine, but I also admit that most of the services they offer (schematics, appraisals...) are also easily found for free elsewhere, and should I have a serious tech problem, I would rather privately write to fellows radio repairmen to ask their advice than to the club, mostly made of wealthy collectors with little to no tech clue. So, again, although I'm not amongst them, I also understand who saves the money needed for an association subscription.

That was a really good post Marco!

Spot on.

Although I do have a healthy respect for APS and
for all of the valuable books which are available
to increase knowledge on this subject, I must also
add the following observation:

This available information comes at a price.
I compare these resources to a tool. They are tools
because they help accomplish a specific goal, not easily
obtainable by any other means.

And also, the analogy of a tool goes on farther in the
sense that any good tool costs money.

For instance: A milling machine. A good one costs
serious money. With this tool, all sorts of possibilities open up for a person who wants to make
things out of metal. The questions which anyone considering purchasing such a tool must ask themselves ahead of time are "How much will I be using this tool in
the future?", and "Will the amount of work I do with
this tool in the future justify the initial cost?"

But the "tool" analogy rather abruptly ends there.

It ends there because outfits such as APS, in my humble
opinion are more or less holding information for
ransom. Pay the money, get the information.

Don't pay the money, and find the info yourself by
some other means. Those choices are very clear.

Note that in this post I very carefully avoid
specifying "right" or "wrong" to any of this.
It just is what it is.

I do realize that many folks such as George have
spent a good chunk of their lives working on writing
these books and documenting all of this, and they well deserve to be compensated for it.

Can I personally afford this info?
Can I afford a proper milling machine?

I could afford all of the above, but then I'd have
my pockets turned inside out and be on the street
wearing a sign, "will work for info" ....

phonogfp wrote:I often find myself biting my tongue (or my fingers) as I read some of the questions forum members ask. I occasionally post a link describing the contents of the eight books I co-authored, but I don't wish to come across as hawking my wares. But I see folks spending substantial amounts on antique phonographs, and afterward asking questions that they really should know before writing the check. I don't get it.

This thread deals with a machine whose background was pretty thoroughly covered in an article that appeared in the March 2014 issue of The Antique Phonograph. Each issue of this journal (and its predecessor, The Sound Box) is indexed on the Antique Phonograph Society's web site. That's 50 issues with 10-12 articles in them. Members of the APS can now do a search of all those issues - plus about a dozen other publications - right on the web site and bring up all pertinent available sources for their query. And yet, the number of forum members far exceeds the number of APS members. Many of us are bewildered by this.

My point is that there's a lot of information available, but it's not all free. Still, it's much, much less expensive than being uninformed. I'm afraid I've learned this first-hand on a few occasions. It's also a lot of fun to learn about the background of these wonderful talking machines and records.

Okay - end of soapbox.

It's the season of giving, so below is the PDF of the article that appeared in The Antique Phonograph discussing the Commercial Graphophone. Each issue contains similar articles on a wide variety of topics at all levels of collecting. If this piques your interest, perhaps you'd care to try a membership in the Antique Phonograph Society for 2017. You can join here:

http://www.antiquephono.org/join-us-home/

And here's the article that's pertinent to this thread:

Comm Graphophone-rev1.pdf

Happy Holidays to all - -

George P.

This is all very good George, but I don't see where any of this answers the original poster's question. Maybe I missed it?

I apologize for the mild rant of last evening. I agree that if a person believes the commodity is not worth the price (in this case $30 annually for the U.S.; $40 annually in Canada and Mexico; $50 annually in the rest of the world), then the person would be foolish to waste his/her money.

Chuck wrote:
...outfits such as APS, in my humble
opinion are more or less holding information for
ransom. Pay the money, get the information.

Don't pay the money, and find the info yourself by
some other means. Those choices are very clear.

Note that in this post I very carefully avoid
specifying "right" or "wrong" to any of this.
It just is what it is.

If the APS was offering only information, and if all that information was readily available elsewhere, I would have the same opinion. However, the 500-odd articles that have appeared in the journal are not available elsewhere. Nor are the contents of the 15 (probably more by now) collector publications that are in the APS online archives so far - some dating back to the 1970s. It's true that some of the century-old journals in the APS archive such as The Edison Phonograph Monthly are available on other excellent web site for free. However, the APS provides a search engine whereby ALL items in the archive can be searched for a particular topic, and the results will include every hit, whether published 120 years ago or last month. No other web site offers that kind of speed, convenience, and comprehensiveness. More original period literature (catalogs, period articles, etc.) is to be added imminently.

Regrettably, the APS must pay for expertise to make this all happen, and for the web maintenance to keep it running. Many people appreciate it - six months ago the site was getting over 10,000 hits per month (I haven't seen updated figures). In addition, a full-color 52-page journal printed on quality paper doesn't come free either. I'm grateful that a number of writer volunteer their time and expertise to put into print the story of the early talking machine. And I'm especially grateful to the approx. 1000 members who see the value in their efforts.

None of this touches on the Mission of the APS, which is to further the hobby through education, aid to the public through website inquiries (hundreds per year), and expanding awareness of our hobby among the uninitiated. If you're not a member, it's not your fault if you're unaware of this since it's usually shared in the journal. You can go to the web site under "Past Events" (http://www.antiquephono.org/events_cate ... st-events/) and see some of these activities, but a number are not shown there. For instance, volunteers from the APS recently put on their second annual all-day demonstration for faculty and students at the Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. The APS has worked with professionals in TV and print media to assist in publicizing our hobby and to promote historical accuracy. In addition, I believe 17 (it may be more now) institutes of higher learning currently subscribe to The Antique Phonograph. This permanence is one reason I write for the journal.

JerryVan wrote:
This is all very good George, but I don't see where any of this answers the original poster's question. Maybe I missed it?

My over-long post of last evening was not directly entirely to the original poster. A few well-meaning respondents offered information that was not entirely accurate. For instance, the closeup photo of a Commercial Graphophone's bedplate in the article I posted clearly shows the two buttons ("ON" and "OFF") which would have dispensed with the idea of connecting a holder there. In addition, the officemuseum.com web site offers a couple of dates that are not accurate.

None of this is meant as criticism of the motives of the posters on this thread, nor those who maintain wholly-free web sites. There's no question in my mind about the helpfulness of the vast majority of forum members. I just remain puzzled by those who don't think APS membership is worth the price of a dinner for two at Chili's (at least in the U.S.).

Again, my apologies, and Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukkah to everyone!

George P.

One other reason I would think that every collector would want to be a member: fun. I don't know about the rest of you but I seriously enjoy reading about the things that interest me. I'm a glutton for information, too much is never enough.

Even though I edit the magazine, every time the printed issue comes to me I read it cover to cover, with great enjoyment. Somehow, even after having read everything during the editing process, once I have the printed issue in hand it all seems fresh and new to me, and I thoroughly enjoy the wide variety of articles in every issue.

In the Internet age we've all come to expect everything to be free, and available at a touch of a finger. But I still believe that "dead tree" media has one huge advantage: permanence. I have an archive of The Sound Box (now called The Antique Phonograph) going back to the early 1980s. I often go back an re-read articles from years or even decades ago, and somehow I still manage to find things I don't remember having seen before.

Chuck wrote:That was a really good post Marco!

Spot on.

Although I do have a healthy respect for APS and
for all of the valuable books which are available
to increase knowledge on this subject, I must also
add the following observation:

This available information comes at a price.
I compare these resources to a tool. They are tools
because they help accomplish a specific goal, not easily
obtainable by any other means.

And also, the analogy of a tool goes on farther in the
sense that any good tool costs money.

For instance: A milling machine. A good one costs
serious money. With this tool, all sorts of possibilities open up for a person who wants to make
things out of metal. The questions which anyone considering purchasing such a tool must ask themselves ahead of time are "How much will I be using this tool in
the future?", and "Will the amount of work I do with
this tool in the future justify the initial cost?"

But the "tool" analogy rather abruptly ends there.

It ends there because outfits such as APS, in my humble
opinion are more or less holding information for
ransom. Pay the money, get the information.

Don't pay the money, and find the info yourself by
some other means. Those choices are very clear.

Note that in this post I very carefully avoid
specifying "right" or "wrong" to any of this.
It just is what it is.

I do realize that many folks such as George have
spent a good chunk of their lives working on writing
these books and documenting all of this, and they well deserve to be compensated for it.

Can I personally afford this info?
Can I afford a proper milling machine?

I could afford all of the above, but then I'd have
my pockets turned inside out and be on the street
wearing a sign, "will work for info" ....

I disagree.

Sure, "information" is everywhere, but collating that information and sifting out the untruths is called research, and every researcher I know gets paid for what s/he does.

What is the rarity of a crank one of these to an electric?

Larry