The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Thank you to everyone who has commented. My original thought was to determine whether anyone here on the Forum would be willing to make some governor friction discs (of steel or brass?) to replace old aluminum and brass friction discs that many of us have that are warped. Of course, there would likely need to be sufficient demand. But I know that I would be a good customer.

I realize that there were indeed a number of different cylinder phonograph friction disc diameter sizes with various governor spring variations (3 governor spring, 4 governor spring). The Columbia aluminum friction discs seem to be the most susceptible to having a warp so I was thinking that replacing those discs would be the initial focus. Brass friction discs seem to have survived only slightly better than aluminum relative to being warped but amazingly there are quite a few brass originals that still spin perfectly true and thereby support a nice, steady, natural playing cylinder. Even a few aluminum originals have survived pretty well but not that many.

I suppose it was wishful thinking when I created this post since warped governor friction discs (on cylinder machines) are surely a pretty common problem. I had hoped to generate some feedback which I have and it's appreciated.

Goodness knows there are lots and lots of cylinder phonographs out there besides some of my own that play with even a slight flutter due to these warped friction discs. Since original friction discs are fairly thin one must be mindful of truing them up on a lathe if that is the chosen option. Most of mine have only a slight warp and truing them on a lathe is likely possible but I'm sure there are plenty of discs out there that have a more severe warp and/or even (yikes!!) a slightly bent friction disc shaft which would be a REAL problem.

Doug

I kind of think that they were probably never made perfectly perpendicular to begin with. Could be wrong. Are you sure that mismatched governor weights aren't playing a roll as well? I'm guessing you ruled that out first, then discovered the disc run out?

Anyway, if I were faced with a warped disc that was very thin to begin with, I believe I would try to "adjust" it some first to get the run out tamed down before I took a cut off of it, thereby reducing the amount to be removed. At this point, it's all theoretical of course.

FellowCollector wrote:Thank you to everyone who has commented. My original thought was to determine whether anyone here on the Forum would be willing to make some governor friction discs (of steel or brass?) to replace old aluminum and brass friction discs that many of us have that are warped. Of course, there would likely need to be sufficient demand. But I know that I would be a good customer.

I realize that there were indeed a number of different cylinder phonograph friction disc diameter sizes with various governor spring variations (3 governor spring, 4 governor spring). The Columbia aluminum friction discs seem to be the most susceptible to having a warp so I was thinking that replacing those discs would be the initial focus. Brass friction discs seem to have survived only slightly better than aluminum relative to being warped but amazingly there are quite a few brass originals that still spin perfectly true and thereby support a nice, steady, natural playing cylinder. Even a few aluminum originals have survived pretty well but not that many.

I suppose it was wishful thinking when I created this post since warped governor friction discs (on cylinder machines) are surely a pretty common problem. I had hoped to generate some feedback which I have and it's appreciated.

Goodness knows there are lots and lots of cylinder phonographs out there besides some of my own that play with even a slight flutter due to these warped friction discs. Since original friction discs are fairly thin one must be mindful of truing them up on a lathe if that is the chosen option. Most of mine have only a slight warp and truing them on a lathe is likely possible but I'm sure there are plenty of discs out there that have a more severe warp and/or even (yikes!!) a slightly bent friction disc shaft which would be a REAL problem.

Doug

What I had as a vision for my press idea is a thick metal plate as a base with a hole drilled in it on my drill press that is just the right size for the "snout" to fit into with no slop, and then using the press and the round adapter to press directly down, flattening the disc while keeping the snout perfectly perpendicular to the disc.

Disclaimer: I'm going off the sort of governor I have on my disc machines. If cylinder units are way different my apologies, but I don't remember that being the case.

On my Edison and Columbia cylinder machines, some had flutter. I never knew about a warped disk, until now. I always checked the governor weights, bearings, and the belt. It it is an old governor with weights, I would tighten every loose screw. Also, make sure the disk slides smoothly on the shaft. If you see mismatched, or missing governor weights, screws, washers, and springs, be sure to have a matched set. Then rebuild the governor. Check the yoke to make sure it is lubricated. A stiff yoke can cause flutter. Lubricate the friction leathers, too. Check the end bearings, to see if the holes are oblong. If they are, replace them. Finally check the belt. It could be loose or improperly installed. For a disk machine, everything is the same, but without a belt, except the early Edison DD's. After doing these trouble shooting methods, my cylinder and disk machines run smooth with out any flutter. Maybe I'm lucky, I guess. I learned these trouble shooting techniques from Eric Reiss's book, The Complete Talking Machine.
Harvey Kravitz

Who would be the best 'go-to' person for governors? I wouldn't mind sending them one from my BF...

-Bill

I have pondered making governor disks myself. It would be easy enough to turn the brass part on a basic lathe. The hard part is accurately drilling and tapping the holes that the springs are fastened to. The old machinists had a complicated lathe attachment called a dividing head to turn the lathe chuck by accurate increments such as 60 or 90 or 180 degrees. If that isn't perfect, then you have not heard flutter. Some governors also had milled flat spots or even trenches where the springs lay; the Edison Opera for example. Finally, where do you find thread taps that tiny?

This is a set I use sometimes working on reproducers and phonographs. goes down to 00-90

http://www.pjtool.com/sae-30-pc-mini-ta ... aQodW2gIOw

That looks like a nice tap-and-die set, at a good price these days---but I'd hesitate to use that holder on the smallest taps like 00-90 and 0-80. Like doing watch repair with a pipe wrench! Those taps are very brittle, and too much torsion will snap them for sure. Years ago I acquired a set, the Morris E-Z Tap & Die Holder, for model-building work. The holder is similar to a pin vise (which, come to think of it, could be used instead of that lug wrench shown in the pjtool set). Of course, you also need the taps and drills of proper size. Pretty soon it adds up to real money!

Most (not all) of these smaller tap & die sets are made in China with inferior metal. I broke many taps with a Chinese set

Keep your eyes open at estate sales, second hand stores, flea markets, etc. Just yesterday I was looking through a box of taps at a Habitat Restore and found a 1-72 tap for 10 cents. A proper sized drill is a must when tapping holes. Machinist's manuals always have tap and drill charts and older versions of these books are easy to find cheaply. Also, be sure to use a lubricant and if it becomes difficult to turn, back the tap out to clear the chips before trying to go any further. Note: If tapping cast iron, no lubricant should be used. (JerryVan, if I'm wrong about cast iron, please correct me. You know way more about this than I, but that's what I was taught over 50 years ago.)

Jim