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gramophone-georg wrote:

rgordon939 wrote:When the Standard Model-A was introduced in February 1898 it came with a Standard Speaker. Later in production the Standard Speaker was replaced with the Automatic Reproducer. In 1901 Edison introduced the New Style case Standard Model-A. In 1902 both the Model-B and Model-C reproducers were introduced. So how could a Standard Square Top produced prior to 1901 have a Model-C reproducer? Standard Square Top machines never came from the factory with a Model-B. Yet you will find machines with all types of reproducers that were swapped out later on.

Rich Gordon

Rich, here's the info from the Edison Standard Spotter's Guide:

http://www.antiquephono.org/spotters-gu ... honograph/

Originally, the reproducer would have been the “Automatic”. On the later incarnations of this model, one sometimes finds it equipped with the “Model B” reproducer. Today one often sees these machines with the slightly later “Model C” reproducer.

Not only is it said that "on later incarnations of this model" (4-clip) "one sometimes finds it equipped with the 'model B' reproducer", It then says the Model C was made slightly later.

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. If tomb has doubts he can just PM me to cancel the sale. I think the Spotter's Guide is pretty authoritative, though.

And, as far as the Model C info- don't ask ME, ask whomever at the National Phonograph Company made the brochure!

Hoo Boy! I think this was a case where I went with a gut feeling based on looking at a few transitional entries on my data sheet rather than referring to any published data.

It always made sense to me that the Model C reproducer grew out of the re-designed Automatic (Model B) rather than having them both premier in Feb. 1902. But Mr.Frow's viewpoint seems to favor the latter approach. In any case, I'll be revising the article. (Uh, George, I have a favor to ask of you...)

Tom, I'm sorry for leading you astray here. Most likely, your machine would have had an Automatic. That said, some people undoubtedly upgraded or traded their Automatics for the Model B. They're handy to have. I use one to listen to brown wax on my New Style Model A Standard because it has a notch for the later carrier arm.

Steve Medved would likely have much better info on the early Model B reproducers and when they appeared. You can bet I'll be re-reading his articles in the very near future.

Martin

Originally, the reproducer would have been the “Automatic”. On the later incarnations of this model, one sometimes finds it equipped with the “Model B” reproducer. Today one often sees these machines with the slightly later “Model C” reproducer.



I agree with this statement 100%. He is saying that on the later incarnation of the Standard Model-A (the New Style case of 1901) that it is sometimes found with a Model-B reproducer. The 2- clip and 4-clip Square Case Model-A machines all had Automatic reproducers except the very early ones. If you look at the pictures in you link you will see that only the New Style case machine has a Model-B reproducer.

I have two Standard Model-A machines on his excel spreadsheet, 2-clip number S283 from the first month of production and 4-clip number S42869 from the last month of production. I'm posting these comments only for the purpose of seeing the machine restored to the correct condition it left the factory.

Rich Gordon

rgordon939 wrote:Originally, the reproducer would have been the “Automatic”. On the later incarnations of this model, one sometimes finds it equipped with the “Model B” reproducer. Today one often sees these machines with the slightly later “Model C” reproducer.



I agree with this statement 100%. He is saying that on the later incarnation of the Standard Model-A (the New Style case of 1901) that it is sometimes found with a Model-B reproducer. The 2- clip and 4-clip Square Case Model-A machines all had Automatic reproducers except the very early ones. If you look at the pictures in you link you will see that only the New Style case machine has a Model-B reproducer.

I have two Standard Model-A machines on his excel spreadsheet, 2-clip number S283 from the first month of production and 4-clip number S42869 from the last month of production. I'm posting these comments only for the purpose of seeing the machine restored to the correct condition it left the factory.

Rich Gordon

Rich- I don't know where you figure this is the round top Model A... the info clearly appears in the section about the 4 clip suitcase model on the Spotters site... see the last two sentences of the 4 clip Model A suitcase section ABOVE the model A new style case section for exactly what I referenced. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the new style case G.

EDIT- On the other hand, what it DOES say about the "new style" cabinet models is this:

The reproducer carrier arm with two clips was replaced early on with a similar one that utilized a positioning pin and a set screw to hold the reproducer in place. Reproducers from then onwards had a notch at top to fit the positioning pin. The reproducer carrier arm lever lift was replaced by the lift pin (with the button head) by about serial # 105182.

My (now Tom's) early B did indeed have the notch. Not being an eggspurt on Edisons, I had to do a lot of hunting to even find out that this was a B reproducer because there's no marking on it.

So you may wind up being correct after all and the Spotter's Guide may need some editing.

Did you read Martins post? He says that Tom's 4-clip should have an Automatic reproducer. Again I ask you how a machine be in 1900 have a Model-B reproducer on it when the Model-B reproducer wasn't introduced until 1902. We see them today because peopled swapped out the Automatic for B's and C's. In Frow's book he states that the Automatic reproducer was used on all Domestic machines until February 1902 when the B &C were introduced. 70% to 80% of the Model-B reproducers were used for export to the Edison Bell Co in Great Britain.

Rich Gordon

rgordon939 wrote:Did you read Martins post? He says that Tom's 4-clip should have an Automatic reproducer. Again I ask you how a machine be in 1900 have a Model-B reproducer on it when the Model-B reproducer wasn't introduced until 1902. We see them today because peopled swapped out the Automatic for B's and C's. In Frow's book he states that the Automatic reproducer was used on all Domestic machines until February 1902 when the B &C were introduced. 70% to 80% of the Model-B reproducers were used for export to the Edison Bell Co in Great Britain.

Rich Gordon

No, I didn't see Martin's post. Sorry.

I was never able to find information anywhere that gave me exact dates for manufacture of these things, and you provided zero backup info as to where you got yours.

Been fun talking back and forth. This is how we all learn by talking to each other. Here's a picture of one of my Automatics thats believed to be the lowest serial number Automatic known #2573 which probably was on a Class M.

Rich Gordon

rgordon939 wrote:Been fun talking back and forth. This is how we all learn by talking to each other. Here's a picture of one of my Automatics thats believed to be the lowest serial number Automatic known #2573 which probably was on a Class M.

Rich Gordon

Agreed!

For a comprehensive article on the Edison Automatic and Model B Reproducers, see Steve Medved's article in the March 2015 issue of The Antique Phonograph. Pages 14 and 15 give a clear and accurate account of the transition between these two models, including serial number ranges and dates. APS members can access all back issues on the APS web site:

www.antiquephono.org.

Click the "Articles" tab, then click "Advanced" and the search feature will come up. Type in "Steve Medved" and a number of issues will appear (Steve wrote articles on nearly all the Edison reproducers). Select the March 2015 issue of TAP.

Best to all,
George P.

Thanks George for reminding me of Steve's article. I have both the earliest Automatic #2573 and the late Automatic #207352 with the limit pin and limit loop that Steve talks about. Love the these unsual reproducers. Charlie Hummel has a few other very unusual Automatics that I've never seen before that he won't part with.

Rich Gordon