The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Sometimes you can recognize Eduardo's work because it is too good, (that is not a complaint, his work is beautiful). If I'm going to have a reproduction, it should come from Eduardo.

A machined plate will appear different than a stamped one. You just have to look at the edges for shear and break. Chances are that no one will make dies to produce a few copy parts. Tightness of the grain is a good indicator regarding wooden parts. Castings are tough without destructive testing. For most machines that are not very historic, it is probably not a big deal if the machine isn't all original.

It would not be very difficult for someone with the right background, and an original machine to produce knock-offs. But if there was a sudden flood of Edison Operas, I think that word would get out.

I enjoy the machines for their beauty and character. Unlike a radio or TV, they still play the same music that they did back when they were new. They are like little time machines that take you back to a simpler time when things were made in the USA with an aesthetic appeal. I think that the solution is to educate yourself on how to evaluate a machine and if there is doubt to it's authenticity, pass it up or pay accordingly.

That is fine but you should keep the original cabinet and be honest to future sellers about the reproduction of the display cabinet.

I do not oppose reproductions I oppose fraud.

krkey1 wrote:That is fine but you should keep the original cabinet and be honest to future sellers about the reproduction of the display cabinet.

I do not oppose reproductions I oppose fraud.

You won't get any arguments from me there. I always make sure to point out what's reproduction (if anything) and what's been done to any machines I sell.

It almost sounded as if you were claiming that these better reproductions would perpetuate more fraud just by their availability. If someone is intent on fraud, though, this simply isn't needed... as evidence just look at the machines clearly made in an Indian hut in Mumbai last week that have absolutely no connection whatsoever to anything ever previously made... and the eBay sellers that will claim this machine was purchased new by their grandparents and they remember this machine since the 1960s...

Obviously these better reproductions do lend themselves to fraud which are actually a threat to veteran collectors and certainly future collectors. My question is how to do we address this. I am not opposed to reproduction parts. I prefer reproduction wood horns as they do look identical to the original horns, are of course in excellent condition and they are held together with superior glue. Cheaper too. But I know sure as crap someone down the road will pretend an Eduardo or a Gfell is the real deal and try to sell it as such. I also know it will work if given enough time. Same with reproduction Eduardo cabinets. Think about the poor collector in the future.

We are all aware of the crapophone and they are not a threat to the hobby.

I don't think that this problem is limited to antique phonographs and talking machines. Look at furniture from the 1600s that became fashionable again the 1800s and was reproduced. Production was still very much manual and following many of the same processes, but experts can still identify tiny differences. Yes, if it was a master furniture maker in the 1800s it may be difficult, but small differences still exist. And yes, beautiful horns and decals are reproduced today, but they are not identical to those from 110 years ago. So it may not be possible to spot differences on first glance, but I am certain that a very close inspection will produce clues.

I don't think it will affect the vast majority of enthusiasts who are in the hobby for enjoyment only, because like someone stated before, they will be perfectly happy with an excellent copy of a Tinfoil machine. It can become critical (and costly) for those collectors who collect for originality, value, and potential appreciation or investment. That group of collectors will have to apply even more scrutiny than today.

I think another big impact will be for the scholars who want to research and document production methods, materials, configurations, and other minute details of our beloved machines. But those experts are used to question everything anyway, because hardly anything survived in a time capsule and may have been tinkered with at any time.

But in the end it will be possible to identify original machines and reproduction parts, it will just become more difficult. Nothing today is made exactly the same way with the same ingredients like 110 years ago. A fake civil war uniform with old buttons will still be identifiable by modern fabrics, threads or dyes. And if someone went through the trouble of creating a completely authentic Edison Opera or Victor VI using the old materials and processes, it would cost way more than an original goes for.

JMO
Andreas

I have always wondered in the end just how good the experts do in your scenario Alang. After all short of carbon dating can we truly test their claims?

krkey1 wrote:Obviously these better reproductions do lend themselves to fraud which are actually a threat to veteran collectors and certainly future collectors. My question is how to do we address this. I am not opposed to reproduction parts. I prefer reproduction wood horns as they do look identical to the original horns, are of course in excellent condition and they are held together with superior glue. Cheaper too. But I know sure as crap someone down the road will pretend an Eduardo or a Gfell is the real deal and try to sell it as such. I also know it will work if given enough time. Same with reproduction Eduardo cabinets. Think about the poor collector in the future.

We are all aware of the crapophone and they are not a threat to the hobby.

I do know that Eduardo's veneer horns are slightly larger than original. As to Don Gfell's- a lot of his are what I'd call "concept" horns that are well executed and very pleasing. As to his original repros I can't say for sure but I'd guess there is some telltale.

I wasn't bringing up the crapophone as any sort of a threat- I was pointing out that fraud will exist whether better reproductions do or not.

I had not heard that about Eduardo's but I don't think that is decisive after all I doubt all the original horns were completely uniform!

I agree about Gfells novelty horns but notice the fact there is no tell you can list for his repro horns. See the issue.

A good rule of thumb to apply to any collectible is: If you like what you see and are willing to pay the asking price - BUT if the future market value concerns you, don't buy it Think about the stock market - if it goes up and benefits you, obviously you are happy.... but if the value declines, not only are you unhappy, you have nothing except worthless paper to look at. At least with a phonograph, you still have it in your possession and can use it, unlike that worthless stock certificate. My idea is don't buy anything you wouldn't like if it was worthless... that way you are never disappointed. Hobbies should not be looked on as investments and we should learn from past experiences - for example: what about all those valuable baseball cards that you owned in the past and lamented because they increased in value? Guess what, things tend to seek their actual level of value and those baseball cards went back to the actual value of being useful for noisemakers in the spokes of your bike....

As far as the "future" collectors are concerned... we are the "future" collectors given the fact that a hundred years or more has passed by and there is no way to actually prove that any of our current machines are totally original or whether they were possibly even made or modified by the former factory workers or earlier collectors. Unless you bought your machine from the original owner or his family, you have no idea what has actually been done to any current machine. I have viewed some super rare and valuable machines that were restored from derelict pieces of junk into fabulous items. Maybe some have been 90% remade, but so what? Otherwise they wouldn't exist at all and that would be the real loss.

The same thing occurs in any hobby and can be seen very obviously in the antique and classic car world. Here is an example of a very rare vehicle (only 12 made and 9 in existence in varying degrees) which was restored (totally rebuilt) from a piece of junk. It took 22 months and remaking almost all of the parts to get this into driving condition. Otherwise it may have just rotted away like the one a client of mine owned in the 1970s in Niles, Michigan. I had the privilege of climbing up the staircase to the driver's seat and being overwhelmed by what I considered to be an impossible task to restore... it was a huge mess of total rust, inside and out.

http://www.kindigit.com/gallery/39-gm-futurliner/

It seems there is no easy answer. Knowledge of course is the key. We need to know exact what authentic looks like, how much authentic weights a huge etc. I suspect the wood for original machines might be denser as they used older trees etc. This knowledge of authentic needs to be widely known. We also need to know what repro looks like. What exactly makes an Eduardo or a Gfell different than an original. This is no easy task.