The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I rule!

You have the right site for the labtone and its usage-good hunting!
Abe

Spores are around everywhere and, of course, cleaning a dirty/moldy wax cylinder is good treat. But you will certainly not kill the spores. Even if you could, the air you breath contains so many spores and some of them will surely find the surface of your cylinders again.

Is there any description regarding the contents of Labtone available? I don't mind the $50/gallon but I have to admit that using a non-disclosed miracle formula does not really salve my conscience.

I am using 70% isopropyl alcohol to clean wax. It is cheap to get and does a very reliable job, plus it will not leave any remains. While speaking to one of our faculty of archeology at my university, it was fully agreed to be very suitable cleaning solution. I put the record on the mandrel and lubricate the surface with a soft paper towel while the cylinder is turning. Then, I either use a dry soft towel or a cotton ball to clean and polish the surface.

Of course, celluloid should not be cleaned with alcohol as it will act as a solvent to the important camphor. If we don't find a solution to keep the celluloid stable I expect the vast majority of indestructibles and BA's to split within the next 50 years or so.

WDC wrote: If we don't find a solution to keep the celluloid stable I expect the vast majority of indestructibles and BA's to split within the next 50 years or so.

Norman I know generally the issue but could you please elaborate. That's not a very comforting thought

Thanks, Bruce

Valecnik wrote:

WDC wrote: If we don't find a solution to keep the celluloid stable I expect the vast majority of indestructibles and BA's to split within the next 50 years or so.

Norman I know generally the issue but could you please elaborate. That's not a very comforting thought

Thanks, Bruce

Yes, Bruce. It's quite an inconvenient truth to collectors. Basically, all celluloid cylinders face the same chemical problem. Over time, celluloid shrinks. The pricey Lambert cylinders are quite famous for the fact, that they usually need to be reamed with fine sand paper on each edge to fit the mandrel again. But at least the earlier Lambert cylinders have the ability to shrink because of the missing core.

Pure celluloid is very hard but also very brittle material. To make it softer and especially flexible, the record companies added camphor as a softening additive. But camphor (which most of us remember to be used in mothballs) tends to evaporate very quickly, also when added to celluloid. To my knowledge, this is the major reason why the celluloid shrinks. It simply looses a good portion of its own matter. That is why air-tight boxes seem to slow down this process at least a little bit. Until today I have not heard of any attempts to re-lubricate the celluloid, I doubt that it is actually possible but would love to be proven wrong.

Blue Amberols (and most other indestructibles) have a core. And unlike the cardboard of an indestructible, the plaster of paris core of a BA is a quite hard material, hence the celluloid has practically no space to shrink. The result is a significantly increased inner pressure to the celluloid tube around the plaster core. With the constant evaporation of the camphor (it's still in there and when reaming it or wiping with alcohol, you still smell it) the celluloid becomes increasingly stressed by a growing tension - until...

The first signs are the tiny splits at the bottom where the celluloid is thin. And sometimes they do also start backwards, usually caused by shock and/or low temperature. Drilling a hole into the end of a starting crack is a temporal solution but you are only fighting the symptoms, not the disease.

We had a previous thread with the discussion of the humidity problem with the plaster cores and even soaking turned out would not work to let the plaster core swell. This observation fits perfectly into my theory that the swell effect of the plaster core is only a very tiny portion at best. The real reason seems to be more the increased outer pressure from the shrinking celluloid which deforms the plaster core to a smaller size over years or decades. What you then believe to see is a cylinder with a shrunken core that will not fit on the mandrel.

Most collectors and archives seem to still ignore this problem rather than making it public to seek out for possible solutions. Therefore, most books and websites still claim the superior durability of celluloid cylinders. Compared to a well stored wax cylinder, I assure you that wax will easily outlive a Blue Amberol.

Blue Amberols are just another proof for the aging problems with composite material records. Different substances do age differently, a relationship that starts to worse over time.

So, how long will an average Blue Amberol last from now? That is almost impossible to say until the first huge wave of deterioration has begun. 50 years is just a personal guess but it could be 10, 20 or even 100 years either. Again, I would love to hear about solution for this problem.

Thanks Norman,

It IS quite an inconvenient truth. We have all seen the resultant split cylinders I'm sure. I've also noticed that US Everlasting, Lakeside etcetera seem to have the additional problem that as they shrink they actually seem to get shorter causing the reproducer to skip once or twice as it passes across the record. I've got records that appear to be in perfect condition that still skip for this reason, I assume.

I just hope your guess on timing is pessimistic and that with more time, preservationists will find a workable solution.

I really hope that I am wrong with my estimate but I honestly doubt that. Any Blue Amberol by now is at least 80 years old, some of them almost 100 years. I wouldn't give them twice that lifetime.

Yes, the skipping problem is another celluloid specialty. And Lambert cylinder do have this skipping problem too plus another nasty issue: Some of them are already so thin that they may fit the mandrel after reaming but will remain unplayable on an Edison machine as the reproducer will not go down enough to touch the record. A hooray for Columbia's!

Btw. I have also noticed that wax cylinders do also shrink. However, their shrink effect is so little that (at least until now and the near future) does not matter. I first took notice of that phenomenon while getting accustomed to concert cylinders where it unfortunately does matter. Many of these cylinders will not completely fit on the mandrel, therefore making them unplayable again on Edison machines. This is because the end-gate cannot be closed and an Edison Concert will not play with an open end-gate.

What may work (haven't tried this so far with concert's) would be to wipe the inside of a shrunken cylinder with turpentine so take off some wax. Scraping or reaming would be way more dangerous. It worked accidentally with a moldy standard cylinder that I also wiped from the inside. After a few minutes of such a treatment it would fit about half an inch more towards the left end of the mandrel. So, a careful treatment with turpentine should also work with a concert one.

Let me add some evidence to Norman's sobering prediction...alas! alas! Here is the first of my cylinders that has split of its own accord. Celluloid does deform. Cheap pianos in the years before 1930 often had celluloid keytops instead of ivory and one sometimes sees evidence of radical deformation of the celluloid. But at the same time one often sees celluloid keytops that are fine after 80 or so years, so I think the original formula must play a role. Hopefully every Blue Amberol won't self destruct. Note too that this is one of those Blues with the dark core that never seem shrink. Maybe in fact that is NOT a good thing.
I am going to try the alcohol clean, by the way.

Jim

Hi All
I do not know where the $50.00 per gallon price came from-Labtone is sold in powder form and sells for around $60.00 postage included to Az. from their Cal. warehouse. It is mixed with distilled water at the rate or 1-oz. per gallon of water. Full tech data-and there is a lot of it- is available thru SWR and I will post their contact data when I get back to Az. The process in using this product is to swish it on the cylinder and by the nature of the product it tends to lift dirt and residue which is then rinsed off. The Library of Congress also tested alcohol and found this product to have a better cleaning process. Once I get back I can repost my method for cleaning both wax and 4 min cylinders if the group would like.
Abe

Hi All
I do not know where the $50.00 per gallon price came from-Labtone is sold in powder form and sells for around $60.00 postage included to Az. from their Cal. warehouse. It is mixed with distilled water at the rate or 1-oz. per gallon of water. Full tech data-and there is a lot of it- is available thru SWR and I will post their contact data when I get back to Az. The process in using this product is to swish it on the cylinder and by the nature of the product it tends to lift dirt and residue which is then rinsed off. The Library of Congress also tested acholhol and found this product to have a better cleaning process. Once I get back I can repost my method for cleaning both wax and 4 min cylinders if the group would like.
Abe