The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

bfinan11 wrote:

CarlosV wrote:

bfinan11 wrote: The original sheet music from the 1935 version even has a recitative that no version I've ever heard left in:

Ella Fitzgerald recorded it with the verse

On 78? I was pretty sure I had most of the 78s with this song. But of course I'm also much more interested in instrumental jazz than vocal...

Not on 78, in the 50's

marcapra wrote:I always loved Bunny's version of Blue Moon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CkxNW_vqYs

If I'm not mistaken, that's actually a Berigan sideman record and Frank Trumbauer is the bandleader. It's a Victor 24K record from 1933, yes? Incidentally, Artie Shaw is the clarinet on that session, as he is on some of the early Berigan Vocalions from 1936.

There's a recording of "Until Today" by Fred Rich's band featuring a Berigan trumpet and vocal I've been looking for for decades.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXd3qAU5r9M

Yes, Berigan plays trumpet on that Blue Moon recording which is from November 1934. Trumbauer is the leader as well as the vocalist and on alto sax. Besides Artie Shaw on clarinet, Glenn Miller is on trombone. (American Dance Band Discography 1917-1942, Rust, c. 1973) Blue Moon has a checkered past as far as the lyrics go. It's a Rogers and Hart song that was originally meant for a movie with Jean Harlow in 1933. It really goes to show just how important the right lyrics are in making a hit song. The original lyrics just don't make it:

OH, Lord! If you're not busy up there,
I ask for help in a prayer,
So please don't give me the air...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Moon_(1934_song)

gramophone-georg wrote:

bfinan11 wrote:If I thought I had any use for a third copy I'd buy this. Aside from "Sing, Sing, Sing", Bunny's "Prisoner's Song" is an underrated classic!

Yes, it is! Super tight killer diller arrangement performed by a great- if underrated- band. I have the "regular" 10" version of the Berigan disc too... IMO the 12" version is way better.

The 10" is a dub from the 12" ain't it ? A tightly squeezed record that 10" record is, and inferior to the 12" from a SQ point of view.

The 10" is a dub from the 12" ain't it ? A tightly squeezed record that 10" record is, and inferior to the 12" from a SQ point of view.[/quote]

I read somewhere that Victor edited the 12-inch recording down to a shorter running time, and issued the edited version on 10-inch discs presumably for use in jukeboxes and probably air-play as well.
So it seems to me, since this was still recorded direct-to-disc before magnetic tape, that the 12-inch version would sound better as it would have been pressed from original parts.

Steven

Viva-voce wrote:The 10" is a dub from the 12" ain't it ? A tightly squeezed record that 10" record is, and inferior to the 12" from a SQ point of view.

I read somewhere that Victor edited the 12-inch recording down to a shorter running time, and issued the edited version on 10-inch discs presumably for use in jukeboxes and probably air-play as well.
So it seems to me, since this was still recorded direct-to-disc before magnetic tape, that the 12-inch version would sound better as it would have been pressed from original parts.

Steven[/quote]

In my opinion, no period dub is equal in quality to the original. I'll have to pull my 10" copy of this out and compare. While I wanted it for completeness, I've never played it, afraid that I'd be too disappointed. Now all this talk has me curious! I don't know how you'd dub a 12" side onto a 10" disc, though.

There were a lot of dubs done by Victor postwar, it seems. I can't recall a "Re Issued By Request" Victor disc that wasn't a dub. Additionally, a lot of late Victor and RCA Victor reissue album sets are dubbed sides.

Somewhere around 1946-ish if I recall they changed groove size, and I'd imagine this to be why later issues of prewar sides are dubs.

Oh, and sorry, but this set is now sold.

gramophone-georg wrote: I don't know how you'd dub a 12" side onto a 10" disc, though.

Frequency range roll off - particularly in the bass end, possibly a smaller cutting stylus, dynamic range compression. I have at least two copies of the 10" ICGS and the grooves run right up to the label.

What a fun and interesting discussion
It's very curious that Victor re-released recordings in the 1940's of Caruso as dubs, for example--and I'm not referring to electric orchestra "recreations"--yet they concurrently re-released others pressed from original parts--some of these still carried the original catalogue numbers assigned in the 1920's when Victor began issuing them on double-sided discs, while some others carried new catalogue numbers even though they were pressed from original parts.

Also, during the 1930's and 40's Victor provided a special service whereby customers could order custom pressings of older recordings pressed from original parts--these were privately sold with white labels bearing the old batwing Victrola label design,
with the recording info typewritten on the labels. These are usually superior quality pressings--but this service did not come cheap!

Steven

Wolfe wrote:

gramophone-georg wrote: I don't know how you'd dub a 12" side onto a 10" disc, though.

Frequency range roll off - particularly in the bass end, possibly a smaller cutting stylus, dynamic range compression. I have at least two copies of the 10" ICGS and the grooves run right up to the label.

You must have a different issue than I have, then. Mine is the same record with the intro cut off and a very abrupt fade out after the vocal... more of an edit than a dub, although I guess it could be a dubbed edit.

I included a pic of the original earlier Vocalion version just because.

Maybe I have a different issue, maybe I'm not remembering correctly some details, the records are in unsorted boxes. I have the Symposium of Swing 12" album and that's what I'd play.

But the points about possible methodology to dub a longer 12 " side to a 10" could still apply.