The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I still look forward to attending the shows but the cost of doing them is inhibiting for sure.

My experience pretty much echoes those of others who have posted about the dark ages. I started collecting at age 12 in 1961. Living in the northeast, machines were fairly plentiful, at least common varieties. I accumulated a lot of them in just a few years. I was featured in the "rotogravure" section of the local Sunday paper in 1963; that led to my acquiring a lot of machines for free, or close to it. People were happy to pass off old junk from their attics to a "cute little kid." A 15-minute appearance on a local TV show a year later inspired another round of freebies. Sadly, a lot of them were large Victrolas for which I simply didn't have room. I was personally responsible for gutting and destroying an embarrassingly large number of them. They were just too common, and worthless, to consider trying to save.

"From Tinfoil to Stereo" was my main source of information. Despite all its flaws, it did help me guesstimate relative age with reasonable accuracy. Or at least a lot closer than the 1882 and 1888 in that article!

Somehow or other I heard of Neumann Miller in California. He became a mentor; we exchanged a lot of letters, and did some business together. Since I was a naive young kid he could easily have taken advantage of me, but to his credit, he treated me honestly and fairly in the transactions we had. I sold him several machines and traded some others, and bought a few from him as well as parts that I couldn't find elsewhere. It was a very symbiotic relationship since phonographs were far more common in New England than in southern California, so I helped supply him with inventory and the tiny profits helped me finance more for my collection. I really regret not saving all of his letters. He taught me a lot that couldn't be found in the few books available then, based on his years of experience and connections with collectors all over the US.

Larry Schlick was another mentor. We exchanged many letters and photos. Offhand I can't recall ever selling him anything, or buying any, but he was always willing to help educate me.

There was one local collector with whom I did a lot of trading, buying, and selling. He was a few years older than me but our shared interest led to a real friendship. It was great to have someone like-minded to share the excitement with.

I never found anything truly rare or special back then, and my collection was more of an accumulation than a thoughtfully curated display. But it was great fun finding machines that had been in the same family, and often the same house, since they were first sold. The thrill of the hunt was really special, and I miss that aspect.

zenith82 wrote:

AmberolaAndy wrote:

edisonclassm wrote: Now with the internet the shows have been diminished in their importance and attendance is down. I hope that will change

One thing that the internet has done Is made machines less "rare" and lowered the prices for people like me who are more interested in the history of the machines and music than the rarity or monetary value of the items. I love when i can find out a manufacture date on my machines because it also prompts me to do research on what was going on in the world when the machine was manufactured or what the original owner's lifestyle must have been like at that time.

I miss going to shows. Whether it be phonographs, radios, coin-op, you name it, the experience is one that cannot be re-created by any other means. Unfortunately, one major reason that show attendance is down is many of us who aren't retired no longer have the available time to attend them. Many are stuck working 12+ hour days and are also, thanks to the information age, expected to be available after hours if the need arises. The Blackberry is the worst invention of modern times and has led to a "need" for instant gratification among senior management types. The last show I attended was an antique radio show around 2002-03. I expect this will be the case until I retire, which isn't for another 16 years at the earliest if the job doesn't kill me before then. I'd say there are a lot of collectors out there in the 30-55 age bracket who would love to attend shows, but are unable to due to work and family commitments.

It was ever thus. When I was working, raising a family and paying a mortgage there was little time or spare cash for collecting. Only when I retired was I able to regularly attend auctions, antiques fairs and flea markets. It was not until I was 60 that I acquired internet access, and with it the benefits of eBay.

My collecting has since taken off, and the problem now is not "Can I afford it?" but "Have I got room for it?"

Jerry, you struck a pleasant note with the names you mentioned! Thank you for the memories!
It was 1975, my college years, and my after school job as an electronic technician caused me to meet Paul Oliphant of Van Nuys, CA, near where I lived in Northridge at the time. He was a kind and informative man, who somehow learned that I was obsessed with old electronic and mechanical devices. I had already acquired a Standard Model A (found in a fallen down shack in Vancouver, WA). It needed a few parts, and Paul informed me that his son collected phonographs and maybe could help me. I went to visit Steve and Jeff, and was amazed at the radios and phonographs these two teenage boys had accumulated.
Looking around the LA area, it was difficult to find anything more than common machines. I found a lot of them, and since many needed parts, I developed a network of sources. I learned of Carl Frick, who was just up the coast from me in Santa Barbara. My visit to his place was intriguing and at the same time a lesson. He was making parts, as Jerry described, not very accurate copies, but suitable to complete an other wise non-working machine. I marveled at his version of a horn for an Edison Fireside! Anyway, after several years, I realized that it was very competitive searching for pieces in the LA area. It turned out there were already numerous long time collectors, who seemed to have scooped up all the good stuff!
I discovered the Antique Phonograph Monthly by Allen Koenigsberg. Finally, a source of good parts and machines on a national level! For several years it was my go to source. Then, about 1982, I began some extended visits to some family members in the Vancouver, WA area. I met up with several collectors in that area, and one who left me with an awesome impression was Ira Dueltgen. He showed me his collection and as we stood beside his desk, he opened a drawer to expose a drawer full of Edison cylinder reproducers! Must have been over a hundred of them! Several machines came from him. For years, I would travel to that area with the double purpose of acquiring another machine and visiting relatives. I liked the open and friendly atmosphere of collectors in the Pacific North West. They seemed to be more willing to part with good stuff than those in my neighborhood.
Now, we are living on the Oregon Coast, where there are no collectors near us. That motivates us to travel, to meet other people with like interests, and to go on yet another adventure!

This is fun, reading the recollections of others, and realizing my own early years of collecting were remarkably similar.
----A paper route, encouraged to get me to save up for college later on, funded most of my purchases. As others have noted, collecting was very local, as was the information we had to go on.
----My Mom wasn't keen on my accumulating phonographs, but records were OK (they took up less space, she'd had an uncle that had a large collection that he'd lost to fire some years before). Records at rummage sales or the Salvation Army store were 10 cents each or 3 for a quarter. Farm auctions could yield up bushel baskets of 78s right from the barn. People would offer whole groups of 78s, often for free, "but you have to take all of them".
----"Hobbies" magazine came to our local library, and I avidly read every issue and then the back issues. Bless you Jim Walsh for your "Pioneer Recording Artists" articles.
----What ever became of the newsletter "Record Central", where I was probably the youngest reader at 10 or 11 years old?
----A 3x5 "wanted" card on a community bulletin board at the local Wegman's supermarket got me multiple calls from folks who wanted to sell their Victrola/Sonora/Brunswick, but it wouldn't be until some years later that I'd own an Edison Diamond disc machine.
----A visit to an appliance shop in nearby Canandaigua NY introduced me to a truly coveted machine he had on display: a sparkling pristine L-Door Victrola, replete with a full set of pristine albums. Eventually I'd get one about as nice, but it would be a wait of 20+ years, and it was pure luck even then.
----Outside horn disc machines were expensive, around $100 and up by this time (late 1960s). Internal horn disc machines were cheap or free and had built in record storage, so I concentrated on those. Edison cylinder machines were rarely found outside of antique shops, they'd be pricey at $25 to $50 and up, often you had to pay extra for the horn and cylinders. My Dad helped me buy my first one, an Edison Standard with a red horn and 2 records, I think it was $40. I bought a nice Edison Fireside with Cygnet horn and a wood box full of cylinders from a neighbor lady, not sure how much I paid. Sold off the Advertising cylinder and "Take me out to the Ball Game" to another collector who offered to buy them, not sure why I thought they were common items.
-----Any record by Enrico Caruso was considered "rare", all Edison Diamond discs were "rare". A broken main spring in a phonograph was the kiss of death, since everybody knew you could never repair those.
----Feeling delight at meeting other collectors, the first one was Mark Caplan in Rochester NY. I made my way to the West Coast once after college and met Ed Linotti and Mr. Siegfried of the 20th Century Talking Machine Co up in Sebastopol CA. An entire barn-type building of records there!
----But! I am woefully addicted to our internet conveniences of today and have no desire to go back in time to those days of my novice collecting. I can enjoy and appreciate what I've found and own so much more now that I know more about the things.

I started collecting vintage phonographs in the late 1960's before I even knew this was a "hobby"! After I got my first machine, I went to the library and checked out the only 2 books available on the topic which were mentioned in some of the earlier replies. I later purchased my own copies of those 2 books along with dozens of others.

I hunted for machines at antique shops, junk stores and by looking through the classified ads in the local paper. I got many of my records at the Salvation Army store - 5 cents for 10 inch, 10 cents for 12 inch.

I'd like a dollar for every newspaper ad I saw for a "1904 Victrola." Since I read the books, I knew that the first Victrola (the VV IV or VI of course ) didn't arrive until 1906. But many of the folks were convinced that the trademark date on the metal tag on their Victrola indicated date of manufacture.

AZ* wrote: I'd like a dollar for every newspaper ad I saw for a "1904 Victrola." Since I read the books, I knew that the first Victrola (the VV IV or VI of course ) didn't arrive until 1906. But many of the folks were convinced that the trademark date on the metal tag on their Victrola indicated date of manufacture.

Even today, I still see see that occasionally! In fact I see a couple of VV-XIs on eBay listed as being made in 1904.

AmberolaAndy wrote:

AZ* wrote: I'd like a dollar for every newspaper ad I saw for a "1904 Victrola." Since I read the books, I knew that the first Victrola (the VV IV or VI of course ) didn't arrive until 1906. But many of the folks were convinced that the trademark date on the metal tag on their Victrola indicated date of manufacture.

Even today, I still see see that occasionally! In fact I see a couple of VV-XIs on eBay listed as being made in 1904.

Even in the information age I still see this mistake! On the internet, of all places, often times!


Anyways, thanks everyone for the great replies in this thread. I enjoy reading some of "the vets" posts.


-Travis

AmberolaAndy wrote:

edisonclassm wrote: Now with the internet the shows have been diminished in their importance and attendance is down. I hope that will change

One thing that the internet has done Is made machines less "rare" and lowered the prices for people like me who are more interested in the history of the machines and music than the rarity or monetary value of the items. I love when i can find out a manufacture date on my machines because it also prompts me to do research on what was going on in the world when the machine was manufactured or what the original owner's lifestyle must have been like at that time.

You're a guy after my own heart. Putting an artifact like a phonograph or record into its historical context really increases my enjoyment of it as well.

As for "rarity," I used to say that as far as I was concerned, I wished the value of antique phonographs would plummet so I could afford everything I wanted to add to my collection. I'm not quite so sure about that these days since that would seriously hurt people who are selling their collections. As much as I'd like to add, say, a $250 lever-wind Berliner to my collection, I wouldn't want to do it on the backs of those who paid many thousands for theirs. There's no question that more common machines have come down in value. Hopefully, that doesn't hurt anyone too much, and helps bring in new collectors.

Shows have certainly taken a hit, but the horror stories of online purchases just keep coming. Plus, now that eBay is charging sales tax, the shows can offer real savings - - especially when you consider the advantages of seeing/touching the item, possibly negotiating the price, and being able to take the item home with you safely with no breakage enroute. Sure, there are traveling expenses, but the additional networking opportunities at shows will, in my experience, pay for those. I think that for many, the "bloom is off the rose" as far as Internet buying is concerned. I continue to buy on eBay, but I much prefer shows, even though Wayne NJ is a 5-hour drive and Union is 11 hours. The APS show in California is great, but air travel has been made so unpleasant that I avoid flying whenever possible. Even so, I think I'll bite the bullet next year. It's really too good to miss. Maybe we'll take the train...

George P.

I'm late to the party on this discussion, but I may have been one of the earliest y in terms of my first machine: I traded two white rabbits to school mate for an Edison C250 Diamond Disc which was languishing in their collapsing woodshed. The year was 1959. This will give you an idea how young I was....very! Like the rest of you folks , The Fabulous Phonograph was my bible. And I soon discovered Hobbies Magazine with Jim Walsh's Favorite Pioneer Recording Artists column. But the collecting scene was different up here in Canada..or at least my part in Southwestern Ontario. Cylinder machines were never easy to find, and when one did run across a machine the price was exorbitant. I remember going to a local rural auction sale in 1964 and watching, in utter horror, a Maroon Gem sell for nearly $400. Considering the buying power of the dollar in those days the price was astronomical, but certainly not unheard of. And even more amazing in view of the fact that a nice internal horn Victrola or Brunswick or Canadian off brand at that time sold for $15 at the local second had stores. That was the price I COULD have paid for the utterly rare Victola XIII ( total production 661) which I passed up in 1966.
But one of the most interesting things for a young collector up here was a CBC radio show called Roll Back the Years.which made its debut on the network in 1950. It was a programme of historical recordings presented by Ed Manning.There was a large overlay of nostalgia, because his target audience was old enough to have danced the Turkey Trot in their youth. Manning's real name was Ed Moogk, and he was to become the person in charge of the Historical Recording department at the National Library in Ottawa. But the broadcasts were invaluable to a kid in rural Ontario. Moogk was extremely charming and knowledgeable on the air. In person he was quite reserved , or at least he was was when I met him years later. He was a personal friend of Herbert Berliner....Emile Berliner's eldest son , so he had he inside scoop on Canadian recording. Because there was little in print about the Canadian market I started to do research on my own. This is how in 1972 or so I came to know Martin Bryan of the New Amberola Graphic. He published my articles. But that is more recent history.
Jim