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Here's an easy way to tell the difference. Pathé sapphire records have a large red coq on the label, or white ink. The lateral cut Pathé's say Actuelle and Needle Cut.

But as said before, visual identification is easy. The lateral or needle cut records have a normal groove, thin and tight. Sapphire records have a wider groove, and shallower, and you clearly see a different bright on them when examined with naked eye under a strong light. Lateral records also seem to me to look less strident, but in sapphire records grooves you see more vibration, they are much louder. r

52089 wrote:

Marco Gilardetti wrote:

52089 wrote:To the best of my knowledge, all Pathé needle cut records are marked as such and will say "Actuelle" on the label, at least in the USA. Anything without those markings will be a vertically cut record requiring a sapphire stylus.

"At least in the USA" is the key-sentence of this post. It's quite exactly the opposite elsewhere.

Really? I have a few French Pathé discs, both etched label and paper label, none of which say "Actuelle" or the equivalent of "needle cut" and they are all vertical, sapphire records. Could you please clarify your comment and/or provide examples?

I do not have any French Pathé laterals, so I have no idea how they are marked.

Thanks!

Where do you live exactly? I would say that - excepting perhaps France itself - the vast majority of surviving Pathé records in Europe are lateral; vertical ones being uncommon if not rare. However, I'd like to read other European fellows' comments on this matter, as it may be just a mirror of the local market. In any case, in my experience label of the two following types, which are extremely common, are all lateral. Both come in a variety of colours, of which green and red, together with blue, seem to be the most frequent ones.

Thanks for the follow up, Marco. I am in the USA, and as noted, I don't have any French (or non-USA) Pathé laterals, so I appreciate the photos. Here in the USA, we see the first two styles posted by Marcapra (with variations) somewhat commonly, but that's about it. Any other kind generally only shows up here at phonograph shows.

In Spain you'll find many Pathė sapphire records, not as many as standard 78s, but quite a lot.

In my experience vertical cut (sapphire) Pathés, whether centre or edge start, are more commonly found in the UK than lateral cut Actuelles, Pathé Perfects etc.

There are several Pathé labels besides the two that Marco shows, and some of them, like the first one, with the square frame, can be either vertical or lateral. The lateral cut Pathés are much more plentiful than the vertical, as the vertical stopped being sold in the late 20s while the lateral Pathés were on the market until the late fifties. But neither type is rare, you can find French Pathés all over the place. Russian vertical Pathés are the only that can be called scarce, at least outside Russia, maybe they are easy to find there.

Thanks Carlos, I didn't know that the "square" label type could also be vertical! As I guessed, there is much geographic variability across Europe. I am somewhat puzzled by the extreme rarity of Pathé verticals in Italy, as on period magazines they can be seen advertised as frequently as vertical types were. However, I don't remember ever seeing one "in the wild", even at markets that specialise in records. But it has to be said that all acoustic records are scarce in Italy; my educated guess is that the average population was too poor to afford records until and during WWI.

I believe that the second label is, conversely, the "definitive" one, used by Pathé until it quit pressing 78s as they became obsolete. It is obviously extremely frequent (I would say overabundant, sometimes with low-quality tunes) as it dates back to years in which people were much wealthier than before, and at least most citizens could afford a record player. Again, my educated guess.

The other technology that I wonder if it ever made it to Italy at all, is Edison's Diamond Disc. Never seen a machine or part of it, never talked to anyone who vaguely knew what it was, never seen a record (except for one single record, which belongs to my collection and I keep as a curiosity).

CarlosV wrote:There are several Pathé labels besides the two that Marco shows, and some of them, like the first one, with the square frame, can be either vertical or lateral. The lateral cut Pathés are much more plentiful than the vertical, as the vertical stopped being sold in the late 20s while the lateral Pathés were on the market until the late fifties. But neither type is rare, you can find French Pathés all over the place. Russian vertical Pathés are the only that can be called scarce, at least outside Russia, maybe they are easy to find there.

http://www.delabelleepoqueauxanneesfoll ... Saphir.htm

The last vertical cut Pathé's in this country said "Sapphire Record" on the label in order not to be confused with the Actuelle Pathés.The verticals in America were discontinued about 1922.edisonplayer