The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hi Shane:

Looking over the initial question again:

"What reproducer was supplied with the VV-X? Mine came with a No. 2, which works well, but I'm tempted to buy an Exhibition to try. But which is correct for the model? I can't seem to find that sort of information."

...you certainly provided the most accurate response to determine which sound box was "supplied" with the VV-X. (The information found in the serial number guide is accurate, though as older components such as sound boxes were phased out in favor of new versions, some overlap is possible in the production line.)

As for which is "correct" for that model, that's more subjective, so I don't think the other responses, mine included, were all that irrelevant.

The #4 or even the #2 sound boxes are not really incorrect to Victor models originally supplied with Exhibition sound boxes, simply because Victor offered it's newer "improved" sound boxes--including the #2-- to owners of older models--albeit, for a $5.00 charge. (Whether a trade-in was involved, I don't know.)

Along this line, I remember reading that Victor dealers could also upgrade their existing stock, prior to any sales, with newer style sound boxes. Over the years, I have seen a few Victrolas equipped with the older style thin tone arms, sprouting #2 sound boxes, though there's no way to confirm when the sound box was put on the tonearm--or by whom.

All of this reminds me of something I heard about some 20 years ago.

A local (Bay area) collector acquired one of the late production (early 1925, pre-Orthophonic) 400-series models with a gold plated, all-brass Orthophonic sound box on the tone arm. The sound box was fitted with the older style O-ring, held in place by a petrified back gasket. Based on the wear patterns, etc., it was determined that the sound box was probably supplied by the dealer at the customer's request--at or around the time it was originally sold.


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(I'll concede that my above post about the relatively rare VV-X table top model I spotted on craigslist is irrelevant to the original question on this string. I have deleted it and replace it with .... a bug. )

Hmmm, I dont think there was any need to delete anything, irrelevent or not. It would be a pretty boring old forum if every question was answered in one post and nobody threw their 2 cents in afterwards to carry on the conversation.
I was simply responding to Jerrys post and saying the serial number determines the soundbox and not the cabinet style, so there really shouldn't be any confussion because of which VV-X it is.
I also get what you're saying about soundbox upgrades, but whether an upgrade was done by a dealer the day a machine arrived at his shop, great Aunt Bessy did it 6 months after purchasing the machine, or Fred Smith did it 6 months ago, and whether an Exhibition was replaced by a Victor no.2 or Silvertone from Sears, it still isn't correct for the machine as it was manufactured & left the Camden factory, and I believe how it left the factory was the question being asked.
I also get the overlap thing, but again the serial number would help here. It would be highly unlikely that a machine with a 1916 serial number left the factory with a no.2, but it becomes more possible for a 1920 serial number.

I've avoided chiming in on this topic until now, but without putting words in Nat's mouth, I interpreted his question as "what is the STOCK soundbox" for his machine? Despite the availability of aftermarket upgrades, my answer is like Gramophoneshane's. It depends on the serial number which gives us an indication of when the Victrola was made and how it was originally equipped.

At automobile shows, for example, cars only qualify for the stock category if they are equipped as they were when they left the factory. (no 8 track tape player in a '57 Chevy.)

I believe the same principles generally apply with phonographs, but I must admit I do make an exception for Edison cylinder machines. I find 2/4 minute adapters on Edison A/B/C cylinder phonographs to be generally acceptable and even desirable.

Given the minimal difference in performance between the Exhibition & #2 soundbox, I doubt that many people bothered to upgrade. If they did replace their soundbox, it probably because the old one was damaged. The hundreds of Victrolas I've examined in the past 4 decades seem to confirm this -- to me anyway.

Oh, I see...

"Correct" as in authentic to the specific model/serial number, rather than "correct" as in allowable for the model line, or "can I do it?"

... an error in semantics.

I'd draw the line at the Silvertone sound box, though.

I did mean "stock", but I have found the entire discussion very interesting, and agree with those who feel that "relevant" is relative - I was very happy to follow the thread where it wound its way.

I'm currently at my ranch in BC, so can't check the serial numbers till I get home in the fall, but will keep it in mind.

BTW, I've bought the Exhibition, and think I'll get Walt to rebuild my Number 2. It will be fund comparing them.

Again, many thanks to all!

Nat

Ortho_Fan wrote: A local (Bay area) collector acquired one of the late production (early 1925, pre-Orthophonic) 400-series models with a gold plated, all-brass Orthophonic sound box on the tone arm. The sound box was fitted with the older style O-ring, held in place by a petrified back gasket. Based on the wear patterns, etc., it was determined that the sound box was probably supplied by the dealer at the customer's request--at or around the time it was originally sold.

This is interesting to me. I have often wondered why this wasn't done by more Victor dealers. But I suspect that Camden and Montreal would not have approved. I've always said that I would have been a tad hissy if I had bought a 400 series machine in May 1925 at full price, only to see it sold for half price in July and then coming to the horrified realization in November that I now possessed the sonic equivalent of the dodo and that it was completely obsolete!
The dealers did have a little trouble with people...um..."borrowing"... the Orthophonic soundboxes on the demonstration models on the sales room floor so they could do their own free upgrade.

But back to the Exhibition: you guys know I'm a fan of it, and I'll say that if they are carefully tuned to the machine upon which it will be used, you can get a very fine performance from them. I am forever playing" tone test" with my Victrola No 2 and several Exhibitions switching them back and forth in order to compare..and on a lot of records I prefer the Exhibition: the sound seems more balanced.

Jim