Tings-tone stylus yes or no?

[Edisonfan]

The viewers name is Ben Livingston. He said that tungsten breaks down over time. If that’s the case, then I shouldn’t have had a clear sound, when playing back a Victor Record? I read that these stylus were meant to be played on Victor records. I have a Victor Tungs-tone record in my collection, and it says on the label, for best results use Victor Tungs-tone needles.

[startgroove]

Paul,

I wouldn't mind trading information about Tungstone needles. I am interested in them, and maybe your experience with them will help others. I am willing to share also.

Anyway, I use them mostly on early changers and jukeboxes. I find that they will work quite well, with no immediate wearing of the groove, if the record is in good condition to begin with. On the electrical recordings which are worn already (which seems to be about 30% of the records I find) they build up material at the tip of the needle. I have a few good condition records that have about 20-30 plays on them (which I often use to demonstrate the machines they are in), with the Tungstone needles, and they still seem fine. For comparison, I have a machine which I play acoustic recordings with steel needles and the same thing happens with worn records, ie dark powder accumulates on the needle.

I would assume the best record longevity would be with equipment that is in top condition, such as having a rebuilt reproducer, no tone-arm flaws such as sticking or abnormally weighted, and good condition needles.

Cheers, Russie

[Edisonfan]

Thank You Russie!

I have a number of Jimmie Rodgers Victor Electrical records, that are in amazing shape I would say E+. I played a few with a Tungst-tone needle, without a hitch. I was on Tim Gracky’s website where he was talking about them. He mentioned that some collectors don’t like them for the tone quality, but just collect the tins. Tungs-tone needles were developed, because steel was needed for the War. (WW I ) . Tungsten was used because of it’s tensile strength. Also, so people didn’t have to change the needle after every play. Also, I’m sure a number of people who owned these machines, did not always change the needle. Steel wares down faster, then tungsten. Probably why Victor touted you could get 300 plays out of a single tungsten stylus, as opposed to a single play with a steel needle.

Edison had the right idea with using a diamond or sapphire for his stylus. They don’t ware down as quickly as a steel needle. However, this made the price of his machines, much higher, then Victors. Diamonds were not used by Victor until after RCA took over.

Tungsten will shatter, and melt but at high temperatures. Edison used tungsten in his light bulbs, but it was not until the tungsten wire was coiled tightly that it lasted longer. Still burnt out, just not after 20 minutes.

Tungsten is usually combined with carbon. Hence Tungsten-Carbide.

My personal feeling is this. Like you said: “ Use a Victor Tungs-tone record or a Victor VE record, prior to WW2 and you should be fine.

Paul

[Edisonfan]

(Double-click the video above or click this link to watch the video on YouTube in HD.)

This is a Victor Record and I am using a Tungs-tone stylus.

[gramophone-georg]

Paul,

I wouldn't mind trading information about Tungstone needles. I am interested in them, and maybe your experience with them will help others. I am willing to share also.

Anyway, I use them mostly on early changers and jukeboxes. I find that they will work quite well, with no immediate wearing of the groove, if the record is in good condition to begin with. On the electrical recordings which are worn already (which seems to be about 30% of the records I find) they build up material at the tip of the needle. I have a few good condition records that have about 20-30 plays on them (which I often use to demonstrate the machines they are in), with the Tungstone needles, and they still seem fine. For comparison, I have a machine which I play acoustic recordings with steel needles and the same thing happens with worn records, ie dark powder accumulates on the needle.

I would assume the best record longevity would be with equipment that is in top condition, such as having a rebuilt reproducer, no tone-arm flaws such as sticking or abnormally weighted, and good condition needles.

Cheers, Russie

I think you hit the needle on the tip right there... I was wondering how many bad "permanent" needle experiences were really due to substandard equipment. I've actually seen steel needles wear out in less than one play due to hardened rubber reproducer bits and maladjustment.

[startgroove]

Paul,
Good to know.

I too have heard some collectors say they don't like the tungsten needles. Perhaps their experiences led them to that conclusion, or perhaps they are more discretionary than I am. I don't like to wear out a favored record, but I know I can always replace with the same, or a similar one. Probably that is because I am not a collector of the artist or song, but of the genre or sound.

Jimmie R seems to be one that I find in good condition often also. He must have been very popular. That recording you posted sounds pretty good. Interesting steel guitar passages!

I think you are right on with your last statement.

Cheers, Russie

PS, Have you ever found any tungsten needles not made by Victor?

[startgroove]

George,

That is a good question.

In addition, maybe the abnormal wear we see on some of these records is wear caused way back then by failing equipment. Some of the natural rubber parts would have hardened within a few years in some climates. Other parts could have failed due to abuse or overload.

Cheers, Russie

[Edisonfan]

Paul,
Good to know.

I too have heard some collectors say they don't like the tungsten needles. Perhaps their experiences led them to that conclusion, or perhaps they are more discretionary than I am. I don't like to wear out a favored record, but I know I can always replace with the same, or a similar one. Probably that is because I am not a collector of the artist or song, but of the genre or sound.

Jimmie R seems to be one that I find in good condition often also. He must have been very popular. That recording you posted sounds pretty good. Interesting steel guitar passages!

I think you are right on with your last statement.

Cheers, Russie

PS, Have you ever found any tungsten needles not made by Victor?

I have not! Victor seems to be the only company. Of course Victor had dominance in the phonograph market until 1929. When RCA took over. Of course Victor was producing disc records since it was formed. I would say Victor probably didn’t aloe Columbia or anyone else to make tungsten needles. Most likely hit Columbia with a lawsuit if they tried.

[gramophone-georg]

Paul,
Good to know.

I too have heard some collectors say they don't like the tungsten needles. Perhaps their experiences led them to that conclusion, or perhaps they are more discretionary than I am. I don't like to wear out a favored record, but I know I can always replace with the same, or a similar one. Probably that is because I am not a collector of the artist or song, but of the genre or sound.

Jimmie R seems to be one that I find in good condition often also. He must have been very popular. That recording you posted sounds pretty good. Interesting steel guitar passages!

I think you are right on with your last statement.

Cheers, Russie

PS, Have you ever found any tungsten needles not made by Victor?

I have not! Victor seems to be the only company. Of course Victor had dominance in the phonograph market until 1929. When RCA took over. Of course Victor was producing disc records since it was formed. I would say Victor probably didn’t aloe Columbia or anyone else to make tungsten needles. Most likely hit Columbia with a lawsuit if they tried.

Sonora made some semi permanent needles that were tungsten, if I recall.

[52089]

Paul,
Good to know.

I too have heard some collectors say they don't like the tungsten needles. Perhaps their experiences led them to that conclusion, or perhaps they are more discretionary than I am. I don't like to wear out a favored record, but I know I can always replace with the same, or a similar one. Probably that is because I am not a collector of the artist or song, but of the genre or sound.

Jimmie R seems to be one that I find in good condition often also. He must have been very popular. That recording you posted sounds pretty good. Interesting steel guitar passages!

I think you are right on with your last statement.

Cheers, Russie

PS, Have you ever found any tungsten needles not made by Victor?

I have not! Victor seems to be the only company. Of course Victor had dominance in the phonograph market until 1929. When RCA took over. Of course Victor was producing disc records since it was formed. I would say Victor probably didn’t aloe Columbia or anyone else to make tungsten needles. Most likely hit Columbia with a lawsuit if they tried.

Wasn't the Everplay needle also made of tungsten wire?