The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

!

!

1926CredenzaOwner wrote:
Puh-lease! (I mean that in the nicest of sarcastic ways. We're all friends here. ) It is certainly a dub. Even the 30's and 40's era re-issues they did in the 50's were dubs. If they couldn't be bothered to go back 10 years in 1953, what makes you think they'd pull a master from 1901? As far as I can tell from talking to other collectors and listening to my own 78s, RCA Victor ALWAYS used dubs.

Yes, but one can dream.

Viva-Tonal wrote: It's a pre-matrix Victor; there never was a metal positive that could be played to make a dub. The wax original was electroplated to produce the stamper itself.

Hmmm, I thought that after the wax was melted/taken away, it would be possible to still have playable (positive) metal. But I've never heard of them playing metals for the purpose of dubs back in those days. Though it's done now, of course.

Not that I'm saying that was the case. I had thought and still think it was simply a dub from a shellac pressing, don't get me wrong.

1926CredenzaOwner wrote:Hmmmm, I recently dubbed one of my 7" Victors, and it came in at 1 min, 41 sec... so, who knows?

Wolfe wrote:Makes me wonder about claim of 'master' on the record label. Unless this was dubbed from a metal master, even possible? Did they do that at that in those days? The claim of oldest master recording seems dubious.

Puh-lease! (I mean that in the nicest of sarcastic ways. We're all friends here. ) It is certainly a dub. Even the 30's and 40's era re-issues they did in the 50's were dubs. If they couldn't be bothered to go back 10 years in 1953, what makes you think they'd pull a master from 1901? As far as I can tell from talking to other collectors and listening to my own 78s, RCA Victor ALWAYS used dubs. This is just what I've figured out on my own... someone please prove me wrong. That wasn't sarcastic. If they did do a "Master Re-issue" series, I want to start collecting the discs now!

(Damn... that did sound rough. Sorry, it's early in the morning, and I'm pissy. Don't take this the wrong way.)

The 1930's and early 1940's jazz re-issues on Bluebird and Victor "Swing Classics" were original stampers, generally alternate takes. Most of these had lead-in grooves added. For example, the Bix Beiderbecke Memorial Album contains several alt. takes. Same is true of some of the Mound City Blue Blowers stuff on Bluebird. Of course the IRCC re-issues of celebrity vocals used original stampers, when they were available, as did the Victor White Label special order series. I still have a few copies of original stamper vinyl pressings of a couple of Caruso items that my father and Aida had made in the early 'sixties.

Uncle Vanya wrote: The 1930's and early 1940's jazz re-issues on Bluebird and Victor "Swing Classics" were original stampers

That's true. I don't have any 'Swing Classics' that are dubs from what I can tell. And even on into the 1950's, who knows. I have an RCA color dog Glenn Miller 78, that has one side sounding distinctly like a pressing from original metal and the flip side obviously a dub, with added reverb even!

But as far as vinyl issues, RCA did have a distressing propensity to use dubs, thus wasting a wonderful opportunity for the old original plates to have a fresh airing.

Wolfe wrote:

Uncle Vanya wrote: The 1930's and early 1940's jazz re-issues on Bluebird and Victor "Swing Classics" were original stampers

That's true. I don't have any 'Swing Classics' that are dubs from what I can tell.

25511, two sides by the Quintet of the Hot Club of France, are dubs on my scroll Swing Classic copy.

There's the classic Bennie Moten 25000 series Victor of "South" (I think it came out on a Swing Classic label at one point) which was in the catalog for a long time. It's got the diamond VE in the runoff which would lead you to believe it wouldn't be a dub, but guess what? Most of them are. I forget the story behind that particular disc ending up as a dub, the earliest copies aren't dubs. And just try to find almost any early 40s Bluebird that isn't a dub...I think I went through about six copies of Glenn Miller's "Pennsylvania 6-5000", for example, until I finally got a master pressing. The others sounded like they were being played through a wool blanket!

Sean

OrthoSean wrote:There's the classic Bennie Moten 25000 series Victor of "South" (I think it came out on a Swing Classic label at one point) which was in the catalog for a long time. It's got the diamond VE in the runoff which would lead you to believe it wouldn't be a dub, but guess what? Most of them are. I forget the story behind that particular disc ending up as a dub, the earliest copies aren't dubs.
Sean

It's 24893; I haven't ever seen it with a Swing Classic label. The original 1928 release was Victor V-38021 (in the 'race record' series of the time). According to Steve Hoffman a few pressings of 24893 contain 'South' from the original metal, but it soon broke, and a dubbing had to be made to produce a new master. The dubbed disc has a lead-out spiral like unto your typical mid-1930s Victor disc, but has the oval VE symbol in the dead wax, not the diamond symbol. The flip for both issues, 'She's no trouble', is still from the original metal, at least on the circle label copy I have (the first Victor label after the scroll label was retired in 1937). No lead in spiral of any kind on either side of the disc.

On electric-era Victors, look for a letter R following the take digit in the dead wax. (In the acoustic era there were also a few dubbings; these may be identified by S/8 as the take number.)

Viva-Tonal wrote:
(In the acoustic era there were also a few dubbings; these may be identified by S/8 as the take number.)

Identified and steered clear of. Acoustic dubbings = no good.

Viva-Tonal wrote:Steve Hoffman

Who's Steve Hoffman? A member here?

OK, so the diamond VE pressings of "South" are all dubs...mine's a 38000 series Victor that came from dealer stock, so I'm set with a copy of it, but I've been heaaring the story about why this ended up being a dub in different versions for several years now.

A friend of mine does have it on a Swing Classic label Victor, I've seen his copy, so I can tell you they do exist.

Sean