Pathé Model VII Restoration: Motor Disassembly

[dzavracky]

Hey Jim,

I really don't remember how I took it apart.... although I do not remember it being difficult. My advice would be to remove the gear covers to see how the rod is attached. You will probably have to turn the barrel backwards to unhook the rod from the pear shaped hole in the spring. Then the barrel should just come right off the rod. Again, I do not remember how I took it apart. It would be helpful if you posted a picture of the springs without the gear covers on.

If you have any trouble you can send me a PM with your phone number and I can give you a call

David

[jimlewis1126]

Many thanks again. We have a properly dreary day in Maryland.... the rain will keep me out of the yard and off my bicycle... thus, it's a good day to gird my loins and release the springs! (Yes, I'm just a little terrified.) But I have everyone's sage advice, proper protection and materials, so the only thing I have to fear is fear itself... or it's a good day to die... or cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war... or something.

I'll be sure to post pictures.

Cheers!
Jim

[dzavracky]

Many thanks again. We have a properly dreary day in Maryland.... the rain will keep me out of the yard and off my bicycle... thus, it's a good day to gird my loins and release the springs! (Yes, I'm just a little terrified.) But I have everyone's sage advice, proper protection and materials, so the only thing I have to fear is fear itself... or it's a good day to die... or cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war... or something.

I'll be sure to post pictures.

Cheers!
Jim

How did it go?

David

[jimlewis1126]

Okay, the good news — I opened the spring barrels yesterday and nothing exploded... the house is still standing... my wife didn't leave me... the dog is still talking to me. Plus, they appear to be in tact. The bad news — I can't get the #&@!?%ing springs out! I've shaken the barrels in a large trash can, pried gently with a screw driver, pulled carefully with pliers, and they won't budge... AND, of course, the old grease is so thick that I can't even see what's holding them in place (pics below). The shaft also is still in place and won't budge, so it's clearly secured inside the barrels but under the springs.

Bottom spring barrel.

Top spring barrel.

The open barrels have been soaking in kerosene overnight. I have high hopes that once I can clear the muck I can see what's holding the springs fast — clips on both the shaft and barrels, I suspect. (David — The picture you posted is indeed a good starting point, and I may well take you up on your offer to speak directly.) In the meantime, I found a posting (maybe this forum — I can't remember) that identifies the Pathé Model VII motor as a Heineman P5001. But further information for either the manufacturer or specific motor — manuals, pictures, catalogs, schematics, etc. — is scarce. I've seen Heineman's bio and "Tenth Anniversary" publication, but they offer little helpful info. The same goes for Pathé Frères — I've been hoping to trace some history since I have the phonograph's serial number, but no such luck. I'm making som headway with similar motors — Heineman No. 77:

https://antiquephonograph.weebly.com/st ... motor.html

But I'm surprised at the scarcity of records considering everyone says the Pathé VII and Heineman P5001 are fairly common among collections. Please, any further thoughts on resources are most welcome.

More later... Cheers!
Jim

[Curt A]

Use a spray can of automotive brake cleaner or mineral spirits (paint thinner) to remove that gunk... kerosene just softens it, though it might work after a period of time. I just recently cleaned a motor that looked like yours and the brake cleaner worked miracles... you might need several cans. Also, engine degreaser works well. Use a plastic dishpan from the dollar store to keep the mess from going everywhere.

[jimlewis1126]

Thanks Curt! I've got a bunch of cleaners and solvents of that ilk that I wondered about, and I'm already using mineral spirits for some of the cleaning. Brett Hurtt also used a 50/50 Simple Green/water solution in one of his videos.... whatever effectively breaks down the grease and dirt. Granted, SG and kerosene are slower solutions, but I don't mind — these are already at my fingertips.

I'm headed downstairs soon to check on spring barrel... I'll keep you posted.

—Jim

[dzavracky]

Can you attach a picture of the backside of the spring barrel?

I am unsure why you couldn't remove the springs.

David

[jimlewis1126]

I DID IT!! The springs were hung up on the nipples, both on the shaft and the barrels — despite the absence of any tension (because I had completely wound them down as instructed). As soon as I was able to loosen them — with some effort — the shaft slipped right out. But even without the shaft, the springs were very happy in their 100-year homes; I had to start unwinding them using pliers with my hands tucked inside the trash can, unwinding by hand and then finally releasing — no injuries, no mess.

David — You'll note that the center hole in the barrel is round, not pear-shaped, but it was wide enough for the shaft to pass right through one it was released from the spring

Now... status... the bottom spring is broken, only about four inches from the outer end; the top spring is in tact and currently relaxing in a soothing kerosene bath. THE BIG QUESTION: Must I replace the broken spring, or can I cut and file the jagged end and drill a new pear-shaped hole? Here are the pics:

The bottom spring barrel after soaking overnight in kerosene.

The broken bottom spring.

The bottom spring barrel.

BTW, I found some more online resources by searching for Heineman No. 77; in particular I found the Antique Phonograph Enthusiasts group on Facebook. Recent posts indicated that some of the key suppliers have closed their shops for the winter season. So, who the the best dealers for me to contact for parts?

Cheers!
Jim

[JerryVan]

I DID IT!! The springs were hung up on the nipples, both on the shaft and the barrels — despite the absence of any tension (because I had completely wound them down as instructed). As soon as I was able to loosen them — with some effort — the shaft slipped right out. But even without the shaft, the springs were very happy in their 100-year homes; I had to start unwinding them using pliers with my hands tucked inside the trash can, unwinding by hand and then finally releasing — no injuries, no mess.

David — You'll note that the center hole in the barrel is round, not pear-shaped, but it was wide enough for the shaft to pass right through one it was released from the spring

Now... status... the bottom spring is broken, only about four inches from the outer end; the top spring is in tact and currently relaxing in a soothing kerosene bath. THE BIG QUESTION: Must I replace the broken spring, or can I cut and file the jagged end and drill a new pear-shaped hole? Here are the pics:

48179418-2987-4909-B947-672EF45697DB.jpeg

21846787-9CAF-4827-925F-FF1060453937.jpeg

D47A84BA-0679-4E91-AAED-71B4C6DB544B.jpeg

BTW, I found some more online resources by searching for Heineman No. 77; in particular I found the Antique Phonograph Enthusiasts group on Facebook. Recent posts indicated that some of the key suppliers have closed their shops for the winter season. So, who the the best dealers for me to contact for parts?

Cheers!
Jim

You can trim the broken end and make a new pear shaped hole. But, first you'll need to soften the broken end for about 1" - 1.5". Simply heat the end to red hot and allow it to cool on its own. Then drill 2 holes, in line with each other, a small one and a larger one. With a small file, connect the 2 holes to form the "pear" shape.

[jimlewis1126]

You can trim the broken end and make a new pear shaped hole. But, first you'll need to soften the broken end for about 1" - 1.5". Simply heat the end to red hot and allow it to cool on its own. Then drill 2 holes, in line with each other, a small one and a larger one. With a small file, connect the 2 holes to form the "pear" shape.

Jerry -- I can handle that... Many thanks! It'll take a day or two -- I want to finish disassembling and cleaning the motor. Plus, I may need another propane tank, and I have to check my drill bits... I'm household handy-ish, but I don't do a lot of motor or metal work.

Cheers!
Jim