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Re: HMV 201
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:11 pm
by Steve
Thanks for the analysis and detail and the great picture of the 192.
I will try to capture a picture of my 201 horn and add it here but the whole of the back panel isn't removable.
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:56 pm
by Steve
The horn in the 201 is somewhat unbelievably identical to the horn in the 211 even though there is no need for the space under the horn for voltage step-down resistors. Maybe their thinking was that the handful of owners might want to upgrade to an electric motor before the range fell into obsolescence. After all, this was the company which thought they'd get away without paying royalties to Western Electric. We can learn a lot about the Gramophone Company from the seemingly odd decisions it made. Its little wonder it became EMI a few years later.
So they needlessly compromised their most expensive spring wound acoustic machine presumably just to save the cost of making a very slightly longer horn?!
I presume the 192 horn doesn't fit a 201?
PS - sorry my photos are sideways (top) and upside down (bottom) but I don't know why. They display perfectly on my screen.
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:14 am
by AZ*
Steve,
Thanks for the photos of the horn on your HMV 201. I managed to take a photo of the horn on my HMV 211 last night. As you can see, unlike my HMV 192, there is a fairly large gap beneath the deepest bend of the horn. While I can't be positive from your photo, it looks like your HMV 201's horn might possibly extend lower in the cabinet than mine, judging by its relation to the vertical wood sides of the record storage compartment. What do you think?
As for whether the 192 horn would fit in the 201, I don't know. The 201/211 cabinet is slightly taller, so I believe the vertical dimension would be OK, but I don't know about about the front to back and side to side distances.
In case anyone is curious, for reasons of safety, I installed new wiring from the plug to the motor bypassing the 95 year old resistors and using a power source that provides 32 volts DC. I left the old wiring dangling in place in case a future owner wants it. (Picture is oriented correctly when you click on it.)
Although in my subjective ranking, I placed the 211 below the 192 & 511, the differences are minor. They are all 3 very good performers. There is a bigger step down in performance for the 162 & 261 with their shorter horns.
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:16 am
by Steve
AZ
Thanks for the pictures. To be honest both horns look the same to me which would make more sense really, thinking about it. Why make the 201 horn very slightly longer than the 211 horn if you're not going to extend it all the way down to the bottom of the cabinet?
With that said we could conclusively answer this if we could measure the gap below the horn. I'll try and drop a steel tape measure in there if I can.
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:33 pm
by Steve
I tried to get a tape measure in there but its a very small space and an awkward angle so I'm adding one further picture.
NOTE: IF you click on the picture it should rotate 90 degrees clockwise and be the right way up!
AZ, the very top of the horn in the centre of the 'u' section (not the underside) at the lowest part of the horn is just below the top of the record compartment central dividers as shown in the picture.
I can't measure the depth of the conduit at this point to work out how much space is left below it unfortunately. I still think the 201 and 211 have the same horns though. What do you think?
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:30 pm
by AZ*
Steve,
Your latest photo confirms what you thought. The horns in the 201 & 211 are the same.
- tumblr_m9hz3jDLGQ1rra86mo1_640.jpg (48.26 KiB) Viewed 1262 times
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:34 pm
by Steve
Yes indeed!
They could have at least put a drawer in the centre panel at the bottom (under the horn) for record cleaning pads and needle tins etc. A missed opportunity in the 201, I think.
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:26 am
by Oedipus
On the question of whether or not the Paris branch had any 201s for sale in 1927, the most likely explanation is that the catalogue compiler had failed to notice that they had none! On the other hand, although London said they could supply none in January 1926 because all their stock had been ordered, it is possible that they were being economical with the truth, or that some of those orders were subsequently returned and thus became available. The 201 (and 211) had disappeared from the UK catalogue by the autumn of 1926, so any late returns might have been offered to Paris.
Interesting about the change of door sizes between the 200 and 201 -- I knew that this happened with the smaller models (161, 171), but had not had an opportunity to check the larger ones. The extraordinary thing is the skill with which it was done. It wasn't just a matter of cutting bits off the lower doors and enlarging the upper ones; if you study those cabinets, you will see that there are scrolling shapes in the jambs, which end at the dividing rail. That rail had to be moved down, and the scrolls re-formed to match. These changes are invisible in the saxophone horn models I have seen. It makes me wonder whether converting existing cabinets was economic!
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:48 pm
by Steve
Oedipus wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:26 am
On the question of whether or not the Paris branch had any 201s for sale in 1927, the most likely explanation is that the catalogue compiler had failed to notice that they had none! On the other hand, although London said they could supply none in January 1926 because all their stock had been ordered, it is possible that they were being economical with the truth, or that some of those orders were subsequently returned and thus became available. The 201 (and 211) had disappeared from the UK catalogue by the autumn of 1926, so any late returns might have been offered to Paris.
Interesting about the change of door sizes between the 200 and 201 -- I knew that this happened with the smaller models (161, 171), but had not had an opportunity to check the larger ones. The extraordinary thing is the skill with which it was done. It wasn't just a matter of cutting bits off the lower doors and enlarging the upper ones; if you study those cabinets, you will see that there are scrolling shapes in the jambs, which end at the dividing rail. That rail had to be moved down, and the scrolls re-formed to match. These changes are invisible in the saxophone horn models I have seen. It makes me wonder whether converting existing cabinets was economic!
What you've suggested is all quite plausible I suppose. Maybe they literally dumped a few returned / cancelled UK orders on the Paris outlet and were grateful to dispose of them at a time when they were very much yesterday's model.
I've looked closely at the mid rail on my 201 and it has been invisibly moved and adapted to suit the modified doors. As you say, it could hardly have been economical to do this work.
Re: HMV 201
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:26 pm
by mrrgstuff
Very interesting discussion on the saxophone horned machines which I feel are often overlooked. For reasons I can't even really explain to myself
I have two 162s. I don't have much else to compare them to, but I certainly do enjoy listening to them
