A Berliner Toy Gramophone with the Crate and Records

[Lucius1958]

Imagine the bidding in the last few seconds!

I hope the lucky winner will take care to have the horn properly restored...

- Bill

[Starkton]

[quote=gramophone78 post_id=302819 time=1634087486 user_id=830]
I find the two serial numbers on the two boxes very interesting. The one that recently sold here in the US [b]#7564[/b] and this latest example [b]#5459[/b]. Both including 3 records (As stated on the labels).
[/quote]

The serial number of the one recently sold isn't #7564 but #E564. What you read as "7" is the model designation "E" in old German handwriting. See the forthcoming (December) issue of The Antique Phonograph about "E. Berliner's Grammophon No. E" of the "Grammophon-Fabrik Kämmer & Co."

[gramophone78]

I find the two serial numbers on the two boxes very interesting. The one that recently sold here in the US #7564 and this latest example #5459. Both including 3 records (As stated on the labels).

The serial number of the one recently sold isn't #7564 but #E564. What you read as "7" is the model designation "E" in old German handwriting. See the forthcoming (December) issue of The Antique Phonograph about "E. Berliner's Grammophon No. E" of the "Grammophon-Fabrik Kämmer & Co."

Your theory has me puzzled for a few reasons. First, what does the "E" stand for ? Why is the "E" not found on the latest K&R label that sold in the UK No. 5459 ?? Lastly, the old German capital E is written with a distinct hook to the right at the bottom, not straight down as shown in both examples. Granted, the 7 or E extents beyond the dotted line (making it more pronounced), one can also see the number 9 in K&R No.5459 written with the same pronounced straight downward stroke beyond the dotted line. Therefore, this could just be sloppiness by the writers at the time and nothing more. I'm attaching a pic of the number 7 written in old German as reference. In my opinion, the character in question on the K&R labels resemble a 7 more than the capital letter E.
Can you please explain your theory further?

Old German E.jpg (23.3 KiB) Viewed 3385 times

Old German Number 7.png (20.14 KiB) Viewed 3378 times

1890's K&R Grammophon Crate Label.jpg (193.56 KiB) Viewed 3385 times

1890's K&R Grammophon (8).jpg (118.14 KiB) Viewed 3385 times

K&R No.5459.jpg (130.95 KiB) Viewed 3385 times

[Starkton]

Thank you for your request.

The differentiation is easiest with the upper part of the letter or number:

[gramophone78]

I am not certain using a portion of a cursive written character is the way to reach a conclusion. In my opinion, one has to look at it as a whole. Yes, the upper loop resembles a capital E, yet the rest is completely out of place in both angle and lower portion in both examples. In my opinion, the upper loop could be nothing more than laziness on the writers part.

Now I'm curious as to what number (or letter) is written on the bottom of my earlier wood based K&R ? I wonder why the company attached an extra diaphragm to the bottom of the base ?? I know of at least one other that shows a spare ? diaphragm attached to the bottom (now removed).

Mark (1).JPG (264.04 KiB) Viewed 3307 times

[Starkton]

We should continue the discussion as soon as another label appears, either on the bottom of a 'Grammophon' or on a shipping crate. This will hopefully either clearly display the digit "7", or the prefixed letter "E" for the respective 'No. E' model.

Highly interesting that your gramophone carries a diaphragm on the bottom. Does the sound box also carry a diaphragm embossed with patent data, or is this not embossed? Which marking is engraved on the back of the sound box?

All gramophones shipped bore a sequential number, as required by the license agreement. Apparently initially only that, at least no model designations are known to have been used before 1893, with the exception of the "Weihnachtsausgabe" (Christmas issue) of November 1891. A German catalog of 1893, pictured in the December issue of The Antique Phonograph, listed gramophone designations (and illustrated two models), including 'No. E' as a novelty for children. A model 'No. 1', as written in modern handwriting (see the letter 'N') in lead pencil at the bottom of your gramophone, is not known to me so far.

[gramophone78]

We should continue the discussion as soon as another label appears, either on the bottom of a 'Grammophon' or on a shipping crate. This will hopefully either clearly display the digit "7", or the prefixed letter "E" for the respective 'No. E' model.

Ask and you shall receive. Please find attached a section of the ships manifest (circa 1881) from Germany showing of all people Emile Berliner as the seventh on the list returning to the USA.
There is no doubt in my mind the 7 shown matches almost perfectly with the examples written on the two K&R labels. So, in my opinion, the machine that sold here a few months ago in the US is No. 7564 and not E564.

1881 German Ship Manifest 7 & 8.jpg (58.09 KiB) Viewed 3153 times

1890's K&R Grammophon Crate Label.jpg (108.71 KiB) Viewed 3201 times

[Starkton]

Thank you very much for your effort. Can you please post a link to this document or reproduce it completely. I will adjust my article accordingly.

Is it possible to check the passenger lists to determine when Emile Berliner arrived in New York in September 1890?

Would you please examine your Kämmer & Co. gramophone regarding my questions?

[gramophone78]

Thank you very much for your effort. Can you please post a link to this document or reproduce it completely. I will adjust my article accordingly.

Is it possible to check the passenger lists to determine when Emile Berliner arrived in New York in September 1890?

Would you please examine your Kämmer & Co. gramophone regarding my questions?

Stephan, you are most welcome.
Please find attached the full page of the ships manifest you requested. This page is from the ship Lessing August 24 1881 on a return to the USA. This manifest was discovered through the research of Allen K.

Regarding Berliner's return date (September 1890), it is difficult to say with certainty as Cora's dairy entries stop short of the exact departure time.


Before we delve further into my Grammophon , lets continue (if we can) on the current discussion as I too have some questions for you.

My questions regarding the two labels No.5459 and No.7564 are two fold.

First, regarding No.7564. You will note on the right of the label vertically printed in English "Made In Germany". Yet this is absent on the label No.5459. Is it possible one Grammophon was for exportation to a country like the UK.....or ?

Second, No.5459 has "St." printed on the label after the hand written 3 representing the number of schallplatten's (Disc's) included. Is the "St." an abbreviation for schallplatten or perhaps "Seite" (German for side)?? This "St." is absent on the No.7564 label.

I also find it interesting that on both labels, schallplatten is followed by the English equivalent "discs"

Look forward to reading your thoughts on these anomalies brought forth.

[Starkton]

[quote=gramophone78 post_id=303021 time=1634404414 user_id=830]
My questions regarding the two labels No.5459 and No.7564 are two fold.

First, regarding No.7564. You will note on the right of the label vertically printed in English "Made In Germany". Yet this is absent on the label No.5459. Is it possible one Grammophon was for exportation to a country like the UK.....or ?

Second, No.5459 has "St." printed on the label after the hand written 3 representing the number of schallplatten's (Disc's) included. Is the "St." an abbreviation for schallplatten ?? This "St." is absent on the No.7564 label.

I also find it interesting that on both labels, schallplatten is followed by the English equivalent "discs"

Look forward to reading your thoughts on these anomalies brought forth.
[/quote]

The passenger list is a great document. Thank you for showing it. I have already learned that my article, in which I referred to this fruitful discussion, has been corrected with regard to the serial number. On the one hand it would have been nice to be able to derive the type designation also from the serial number, on the other hand the 'new' number allows to create a chronology.

In fact, the differences in the labels are interesting. "St." is a packing unit, the abbreviation for "Stück" ("piece")

On both labels the included records are designated in both German ("Schallplatten") and English ("discs"). This is not surprising, since England was the most important export market for gramophones from Waltershausen from the beginning of 1891.

Since 1887 German products had to be labeled "Made in Germany" when exported to England and the label of serial number 7564 could be a reference to that target market. But this prescribed designation of origin initially stigmatized German products and I could well imagine, but there are too few sources, that the Waltershausen manufacturers placed it more discreetly. After a short period of stigmatization, however, "Made in Germany" became an international sign of quality when German products turned out to be not only cheaper, but of equal quality and in some cases even better than goods from other countries.

A look at the accompanying 12.5 cm E. Berliner discs is interesting. All 18 discs found with 5459, which has apparently always been in English possession, are exclusively English-language and instrumental recordings. Originally, 11 discs were found with number 7564, which was discovered in the U.S. All voice and vocal recordings. Seven in German, four in English.

To summarize, in view of the label, serial number 5459 could have been reserved for everywhere outside of England, but its history and the accompanying discs speak against it. If number 7564 was intended for England only, the German discs don't really fit. The change of label lettering could reflect the change in meaning of "Made in Germany" and number 5459 merely bears the former version of the label, but the sources are inadequate. Let everyone make up their own mind.