Records..

[gramophoneshane]

Generally speaking though, you could probably say certain types of records are more desirable or collectible than others, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are of high value.
These would include early Berliners (the original disc manufacturers), early 7", 10" & 12" records by companies like Victor, Columbia, Zonophone, Gramophone & Typewriter Co & other foreign companies, most single sided discs, Edison Diamond Discs in the 52,000 series (these were electrically recorded toward the end of production), any rare or obscure label that was produced for a short time, especially if they are known to have recorded things like early black jazz artists (like the Black Swan label) or artists that made it big years later.
Again, very generally speaking, the most collectible genres would be ragtime, jazz, dance band and swing records, comic, vaudeville and music hall, and early country & western/hillbilly records, and rock n roll. Songs about cars, trains, planes, submarines etc ect can sometime be quite collectible, as are things like advertising & demo records, political speaches, historical recordings & reenactments, or unusual recordings like someone playing a wood saw, birds chirping or a bear growling lol.
Recordings by some famous or important people are also collectible, like records by Thomas Edison, the king of England or an Indian chief (native American), or stars of stage and screen.
Along with fame though comes high record sales in many cases, so even though the artist was famous, a recording could be virtually worthless because 100s of 1000s of copies sold making them extremely common. Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is a prime example.
Other collectible records would be those that break away from convension. like those of an odd size, coloured shellac, picture discs, and discs made from unusual materials like early flexible plastics or coated cardboard, glass & metal.

[gramophoneshane]

Newb, there are two types of vertical formats as mentioned in the previous posts: Edison's Diamond Disc format (which I refer to as 'vertical', and the format used by Pathé, Rex, etc. that is called 'hill-and-dale'; the difference being the shape of the groove and the styli used for playback. Edison used a V-shaped groove and a conical diamond stylus; hill-and-dale typically uses a U-shaped groove and a ball-shaped sapphire stylus. There is another type of hill-and-dale that uses a V-shaped groove and a disposable steel needle such as early OkeH, early Gennett, etc. There is yet another rather uncommon steel needle format that is a combination lateral and vertical (Par-O-Ket) designed to play on either lateral or hill-and-dale format machines.

The hill-and-dale sapphire format was of French origin and enjoyed a brief vogue here in the States right around WWI with most brands of this sort being centered in Philadelphia.

Edison's vertical diamond format was derived primarily from his existing cylinder record technology and adapted to the disc format.

I've always thought "hill & dale" was an American term used by some early companies, but mostly used by American collectors. I've never seen any original French Pathé references to "hill & dale" recordings. They were just called sapphire (saphir) discs, or refered to as "gravure verticale" which translates to VERTICALLY ETCHED.
I didn't think the groove shape had anything to do with it really. The recording was either made vertically ( up & down/hill & dale) or the recording was made laterally ( from side to side)

So would you say an Edison cylinder is hill and dale, but a diamond disc is vertically cut?

[Ole Canal Antiques]

Newb, there are two types of vertical formats as mentioned in the previous posts: Edison's Diamond Disc format (which I refer to as 'vertical', and the format used by Pathé, Rex, etc. that is called 'hill-and-dale'; the difference being the shape of the groove and the styli used for playback. Edison used a V-shaped groove and a conical diamond stylus; hill-and-dale typically uses a U-shaped groove and a ball-shaped sapphire stylus. There is another type of hill-and-dale that uses a V-shaped groove and a disposable steel needle such as early OkeH, early Gennett, etc. There is yet another rather uncommon steel needle format that is a combination lateral and vertical (Par-O-Ket) designed to play on either lateral or hill-and-dale format machines.

The hill-and-dale sapphire format was of French origin and enjoyed a brief vogue here in the States right around WWI with most brands of this sort being centered in Philadelphia.

Edison's vertical diamond format was derived primarily from his existing cylinder record technology and adapted to the disc format.

The answer to your question about which labels collectors like is very complex in that collectors assess records based on not
only the label, but the content of the record, the artist, the subject matter, and frequently down to which take or mor specific master a given record was pressed from. Knowing which records are desirable requires a vast knowledge of history, technology, sociology, music, etc, etc, and is a learned skill that takes years to acquire. There are far too many unusual labels and variants to simply list. A difficult question to answer simly!

Thanks John!

[JohnM]

Newb, there are two types of vertical formats as mentioned in the previous posts: Edison's Diamond Disc format (which I refer to as 'vertical', and the format used by Pathé, Rex, etc. that is called 'hill-and-dale'; the difference being the shape of the groove and the styli used for playback. Edison used a V-shaped groove and a conical diamond stylus; hill-and-dale typically uses a U-shaped groove and a ball-shaped sapphire stylus. There is another type of hill-and-dale that uses a V-shaped groove and a disposable steel needle such as early OkeH, early Gennett, etc. There is yet another rather uncommon steel needle format that is a combination lateral and vertical (Par-O-Ket) designed to play on either lateral or hill-and-dale format machines.

The hill-and-dale sapphire format was of French origin and enjoyed a brief vogue here in the States right around WWI with most brands of this sort being centered in Philadelphia.

Edison's vertical diamond format was derived primarily from his existing cylinder record technology and adapted to the disc format.

I've always thought "hill & dale" was an American term used by some early companies, but mostly used by American collectors. I've never seen any original French Pathé references to "hill & dale" recordings. They were just called sapphire (saphir) discs, or refered to as "gravure verticale" which translates to VERTICALLY ETCHED.
I didn't think the groove shape had anything to do with it really. The recording was either made vertically ( up & down/hill & dale) or the recording was made laterally ( from side to side)

So would you say an Edison cylinder is hill and dale, but a diamond disc is vertically cut?

The terminology I'm attempting to describe solely applies to disc recordings. Not sure of the etymology of the term 'hill-and-dale', but the Brits must use that term as well . . . isn't the City of London Phonograph and Gramophone Society newsletter called The Hill-and-Dale News?

I would still argue that groove and stylus geometry are the determining factors when sorting between Edison's vertical format and 'hill-and-dale' types.

[Wolfe]

I would still argue that groove and stylus geometry are the determining factors when sorting between Edison's vertical format and 'hill-and-dale' types.

Edison's DD's are the only records I know that can be played with acceptable results using a microgroove conical stylus designed for LP's. Provided you've wired properly for vertical playback. No other verticals, be it a Rex, Okeh, Paramount or what have you will play at all well with a microgroove tip. Certainly not Pathé. Though I must say I've never tried a Par-O-Ket. That must be owing to unique groove geometry.

[De Soto Frank]

The term "hill and dale" in reference to record format goes back a long, long way... somewhere the other day, I ran across Louis Taxon's 1917 patent application for what became the Brunswick "Ultona" reproducer, and the language in the application specfically uses the wording "hill and dale" to describe the vertical format.

I think the term has been used fairly generically to describe vertical recordings since 1900 or so, much the same way that any non-electric, wind-up phono has commonly been called a "Victrola", since the 1910's.

I won't dispute that Pathé and other "sapphire records" have a different groove cross-section than Edison Diamond-Disc, but I've always heard the term "hill and dale" construed to apply to any and all vertically-cut discs, and cylinders.

[JohnM]

Well, I certainly don't want to muddy the waters or add to any confusion, but old habits die hard I guess. This distinction was taught to me when I was about age 12 by my collecting mentors, only one of who is still living today. Perhaps my use of the term 'hill-and-dale' is like the reason mother cut the bone off the end of the holiday ham. To me, calling sapphire discs 'hill-and-dale' and Edison discs 'vertical' is second nature and a no-brainer -- hell, I know what I'm talking about!

I'm not at home and can't access my library again, but what is the chapter in Roland Gellatt's The Fabulous Phonograph called that is about these recordings -- something about "The Vertical Bandwagon"?. I'd like to review that chapter right now and note his terminology (he is British), because that may have been one of the sources that informed me.

[Wolfe]

Nowdays, when I go out on the street to accost random passersby about the differences, I just boil the terminology down to 'vertical' or 'lateral.' Saves frustration, especially when many of these chimps don't even know what 'records' are anyway. How can you win?

[JohnM]

The term "hill and dale" in reference to record format goes back a long, long way... somewhere the other day, I ran across Louis Taxon's 1917 patent application for what became the Brunswick "Ultona" reproducer, and the language in the application specfically uses the wording "hill and dale" to describe the vertical format.

I think the term has been used fairly generically to describe vertical recordings since 1900 or so, much the same way that any non-electric, wind-up phono has commonly been called a "Victrola", since the 1910's.

I won't dispute that Pathé and other "sapphire records" have a different groove cross-section than Edison Diamond-Disc, but I've always heard the term "hill and dale" construed to apply to any and all vertically-cut discs, and cylinders.

On the two-sided Ultona reproducer, there are two vertical formats available -- Edison and sapphire -- so which of these was he using the term "hill-and-dale" to describe? Or does the context of the patent apply to both?

[gramophoneshane]

I would think "hill and dale" was an invented term used to describe vertical recordings in much the same way "needle cut" was invented to describe a lateral recording.
I dont quite understand how a hill & dale recording can have either a U shaped groove for a sapphire OR a V shaped groove for a steel needle, yet only an Edison can be vertical when it also has a V shaped groove but uses a conical stylus for playback.
A steel needle is also conical at the tip, is it not??

I realise the grooves are shaped differently & a different shaped cutter is used to make the groove/recording, but the cutting stylus either moves vertically or laterally, regardless of the groove shape it leaves behind.
I also thought the groove/recording technic like that used on Par-o-ket were called a "universal" groove as they could be played using either the lateral or vertical system.