The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Marcel,

Click on this link

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=3&t=4015

And look for edisonphonoworks' post (about four posts down the thread) - he explains the chemistry involved in the various wax cylinders... he also currently produces brown-wax cylinders.

Regards,

Frank

Making blanks is not a simple matter. The formula has to be exact and there is a very narrow band of being on target, I measure to a hundreth of a gram of accuracy. You base new blanks on the old formule as a start, and then have to do experiments to nail down with precision the correct percentages of the modern subs for the old natural components, all the new subs are much harder than the original chemicals Aylsworth and Miller used. I have made thousands of them, and each batch faces new challenges, even though they are made the same exact way each time. When you make blanks you are fighting pin holes, even thermodynamic contraction, even cooling throughout the surface. In the middle surface using modern versions of the old chemicals a big problem with a line of crystaline wax forming, if you see this you have to add a certain chemical, re heat the wax, test it, cool it, and heat up to make more test blanks. Every mold is different, and. Some require being heated to 400 degrees, some you can pour the wax in, and a good blank with no defects issue. Weather plays an important part, there will be times I will not be able to have any good blanks come out for a month, and then ill have a week where they are streak and star free. The formula starts with stearic, then aluminum is dissolved in lye water, filtered and added to the melted stearic, and thensal soda added for further saponification next either paraffin,cocinic acid,ceresine,ozokerite, sterine pitch, montan wax, are added to make it moisture proof. If making 1902 flat end gm formula caranuba is added and lampblack, or nigrosene B dye.If making a disc masterwax, red lead oxide is added to caustic water and stearic, and montan wax added. Mid era gms have a brown wax base, but pine tar,lampblack, caranuaba, and zinc and copper powders treated with sulfuric acid, precipitated,then washed. Another GM formula subs caranuaba wax for ebonite, which to my understanding hard rubber, and would explain records becoming very brittle in later years.

De Soto Frank wrote:Marcel,

Click on this link

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=3&t=4015

And look for edisonphonoworks' post (about four posts down the thread) - he explains the chemistry involved in the various wax cylinders... he also currently produces brown-wax cylinders.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank

That was a very interesting article, but this is brown wax cylinders. I would like to know the ingredients for the black cylinder, I understand that these are not actually wax.

Regards Marcel

The black cylinders are made from a metallic soap; again I defer to
Shawn Borri, as he seems to be the leading hands-on authority on this stuff.

1901 Flat ended Edison moulded no title records have a brown wax (metallic soap) base of aluminim stearate, sodium stearate,. And ceresine. Caranuaba wax is added to make them hard and durable, and lamp black for color, this was used until 1904. From 1904-1908, coved end, black moulded Edison records-start with brown wax (aluminated soap) base, copper sulfate and zinc powder are reacted with sulfuric acid, precipitated, washed and added to the wax,and caranuaba wax, next (pine tar is boiled to half bulk) and added, and ceresine to temper, amp black for the color. Even though the hard four min wax was developed also in 1904 it was not used until 08 and has no ceresine, or caranuaba wax, these components are replaced with ebonite, (hard rubber) melted at 360 degrees, added to the brown wax aluminated soap, pine tar, zinc and copper, and lamblack. Mother records used to create multiple working molds are based on the 1901 molded formula, with no colorant, they were a yellow color. Columbia molded records were super saponified Columbia brown wax, with such a high concentration of aluminum, as to not be easely shaved, Sears version with no lampblack, and. Columbia regular moulded with lampblack, Columbia do not even have sal soda, just aluminated saponified low grade stearic and ceresine.

My knowledge of chemistry is limited, but anything "stearic" is an organic compound ( like animal fat / plant oils ) and is attractive food for molds and bacteria.

Thus, moldy black cylinders under the right "wrong" conditions.

I have included some photos of record making items. We have a page from the factory memo for 1904 production instructions for making wax, and hand written instructions for mold processing instructions from Jonas Aylsworth, the chemist who developed most Edison wax formulas. We have a standard brown wax soap base used for Edison brown wax records, that I have cooked up, and the formula I have used for thousands of brown wax blanks for recording. Another photo we have a blank mold showing the outer casing and tapered mandrell, which is oversized to compensate shrinkage, and adaptable to different formulations that shrink at various percentages. Above the mold is placed a washer with a hole in the center, and a resevore above that, so a two inch plug is formed to lesen bubbles in the blank, and blanks having over two and a half minutes of recording time at 160 rpm.

YES, original stearic of commerce at the turn of the century was derived from beef tallow stearin, which is further pressed to remove as much glycerin and olaic acid from it as possible, Aylsworth states in court that 100% stearic would be ideal, free from olaic, but the actual stearic of commerce at that time contained from 2%-6% olaic acid. OLAIC is what the bacteria are after. Columbia used very poor stearic with higher concentrations of olaic than Edison. Onetime the purchasing agent at Edison purchaed Proctor and Gamble Stearic, and it was used to make records, they had black spots and bubbles and Aylsworth was called in to analize the sample, and foung glycerine, and asked from whom they purchased stearic, and he said set it aside, he told them only to use Mitchell brand, and that solved the problem. Stearic today is made from palm wax, and ceresine is synthetic, originally a coal wax of refined ozokerite. Making blanis today requires less aluminum and saponification, and more tempering to arrive at the same result, a lot of work.

De Soto Frank wrote:My knowledge of chemistry is limited, but anything "stearic" is an organic compound ( like animal fat / plant oils ) and is attractive food for molds and bacteria.

Thus, moldy black cylinders under the right "wrong" conditions.

[tr][/tr]

Shawn,
Is it possible to vibrate a container of molten wax -- or perhaps the filled mold itself -- and cause the bubbles to rise to the surface?

I have tried this, and the results are even worse!, I used a foot massager from the 1960s that attaches to the mold with springs, and shakes the mold through the cooling process. I found poring the wax in the mold and placing it in an oven at a temp where the wax is cooled to a paste, and slowly throughout the surface, and then contracts away from the side, has less internal bubbles.

JohnM wrote:Shawn,
Is it possible to vibrate a container of molten wax -- or perhaps the filled mold itself -- and cause the bubbles to rise to the surface?