The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Just to add to the CCW versus CW rotation issue, I don't think we can assume that either rotation is "correct" since we don't know the nature of this machine or of the records it played. Here's another question, hill & dale or lateral grooves? All pre-conceived notions of what "should be" correct, are off.

There are still mysteries to solve in this hobby!!!

Purely based on the video Rene posted of the Idéal Mixte, where the same reproducer appears to have played both cylinders and discs, I think it's pretty safe to assume this too played vertically recorded discs.
But as you say, without unquestionable identification, it's impossible to be 100% sure either way.

JerryVan wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:19 am Interesting!

- Is the diameter of the turntable spindle such that a regular 78 rpm record would fit?
- Do I see a drive pin just adjacent to the turntable spindle? The presence of this might suggest the need for a special record, suited only to this machine. (Such a record may be intended to rotate CCW?)
- The turntable would only rotate CCW if the current drive belt is placed in the originally intended manner. The question in my mind is, is this the remnants of the original belt and is it installed as originally intended? A twist in the belt from the drive to the driven pullies would result in CW rotation.
- Is the linkage from the carriage to the governor meant to gradually increase/decrease rpm's as the carriage traverses? Or, is this meant to automatically release the brake when the carriage is advanced to the "start" position of the record?
- When the motor runs and the carriage is engaged with the feedscrew, does the carriage advance from left to right, or from right to left?
- The wear indications on the carriage slide suggest some degree of use. Do you see other signs of use/wear on gears, etc.? (Wondering if this was ever a complete machine that was actually ever in use, or an experimental project.)

My guess is that this was an experimental piece. It's construction does not appear to suggest a mass produced example, but instead a "one-off" example.

What are these details about???

mystery mach.png
mystery mach (2).png
mystery mach2.png

It'll be interesting to read Jerry's response to your questions.

I'd love to know if the turntable on Jerry's machine is the same diameter as the turntable on the Idéal Mixte?
Of course unless someone knows the whereabouts of a Idéal Mixte, that measurement may never be known.

I can't help but wonder whether both machines share any identical components at all, right down to the screw sizes and threads used.
Anything at all that might indicate whether both machines came from the same factory, as perhaps a model variation, or an experimental prototype, or if it's some persons or company's attempt to loosely copy or improve the Idéal Mixte's design

This discussion has been around the houses a few times on one or more facebook discussion boards, when this machine was in posession of Cliff Bolling.

No, it is not any variety of an Ideal combination machine - I have a few. More than likely someone playing around with trying to convert a cylinder machine. For that its kind of interesting.

- Is the diameter of the turntable spindle such that a regular 78 rpm record would fit?
- Do I see a drive pin just adjacent to the turntable spindle? The presence of this might suggest the need for a special record, suited only to this machine. (Such a record may be intended to rotate CCW?)
- The turntable would only rotate CCW if the current drive belt is placed in the originally intended manner. The question in my mind is, is this the remnants of the original belt and is it installed as originally intended? A twist in the belt from the drive to the driven pullies would result in CW rotation.
- Is the linkage from the carriage to the governor meant to gradually increase/decrease rpm's as the carriage traverses? Or, is this meant to automatically release the brake when the carriage is advanced to the "start" position of the record?
- When the motor runs and the carriage is engaged with the feedscrew, does the carriage advance from left to right, or from right to left?
- The wear indications on the carriage slide suggest some degree of use. Do you see other signs of use/wear on gears, etc.? (Wondering if this was ever a complete machine that was actually ever in use, or an experimental project.)

My guess is that this was an experimental piece. It's construction does not appear to suggest a mass produced example, but instead a "one-off" example.

What are these details about???

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The diameter of the spindle is too big for a regular size 78 but smaller than records for a Standard disc machine. Plus there's an adjoining pin which I assume would not allow a record to slip on the turntable. And finally there's a small spindle cap. All of this suggests some sort of special record.

The distance from the shaft that connects to the spindle pulley is quite short. The remains of the belt are there and the width of the belt appears a little wider than belting for an Edison. I would think the short distance would make it difficult to introduce a twist to make the turntable turn clockwise.

When you start the carriage at the farthest distance from the turntable the carriage is drawn to the left towards the turntable. If the turntable turns counterclockwise the stylus would make contact with the recorded surface as it moves away from the stylus.

There is a shaft connected to the lower portion of the carriage and runs back to the governor. It appears that the pressure against the governor disc is continuously changing as the carriage moves.

I am at a bit of a disadvantage because one of the governor springs is broken. I believe this machine was brought to the States when a French collector moved here as an adult. But there were at least two other owners between the French collector and myself so owners and origins are a little hazy. I appreciate the questions and comments so keep them coming.

Thanks, Jerry Blais (French! )

My guess is that this was an experimental disc machine built on the basis of a cylinder phonograph by the French manufacturer Louis Lamazière.
We can compare its various elements, similar to those of Lamazière n° 2 (1899), predecessor Ideal sold later by La Maison de la Bonne Presse, of which here are photos.
Julien.

It seems logical that someone would attempt to convert a cylinder machine to a disc format--what I'm having a hard time figuring out is why it has a connection directly to the governor.

This makes me think it is meant to be an experiment on inner-groove distortion. I do not know if the records were inside-start or edge-start, but with a standard 78 you of course get a certain amount of distortion as the needle grows nearer to the center.

Suppose the machine is started off at the center with the turntable traveling fast. The reproducer nears the outer edge & the governor slows it down to keep a reasonably constant speed. It will not sound like it is creating distortion.

Suppose it's playing edge-start discs & set to speed up as it gets closer to the center--the records will have better fidelity,

This machine may have never used a commercially available disc, too; it may have been used only in a laboratory setting.

I tightened the spindle cap and the gap between the bottom of the cap and the turntable would suggest a thick vertical cut disc record. I believe the turntable spun counterclockwise, played a hill & dale disc record which started at the out edge, and as the carriage moved towards the record center the turntable increased speed.

Jerry B.