The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Skihawx wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:11 pm If it were on this side of the pond I'd be interested. I am sorry I didn't bid higher on the 194 that was auctioned over here recently. It looks to me that the cabinet is in better shape than the tone arm. Maybe someone switched it recently.

Inigo wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:02 am Not rare that prices for 163 are comparatively higher than for 193/194 and larger ones. The 163 has it's own charm on its smaller size. That's a point.
ITOH, buying a machine with a no34 motor to restore... ufff... with main springs at 60€ apiece... these are 240€ more, plus shipping of heavy springs...
I own a 127 which I've abandoned... no32 motor, two large springs mean 120€ more.... I'm afraid I'll pass that machine along for others to enjoy... or for that cost, revert to an electric motor.

CarlosV wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:08 am

Inigo wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:02 am Not rare that prices for 163 are comparatively higher than for 193/194 and larger ones. The 163 has it's own charm on its smaller size. That's a point.
ITOH, buying a machine with a no34 motor to restore... ufff... with main springs at 60€ apiece... these are 240€ more, plus shipping of heavy springs...
I own a 127 which I've abandoned... no32 motor, two large springs mean 120€ more.... I'm afraid I'll pass that machine along for others to enjoy... or for that cost, revert to an electric motor.

When one of my nr 32 motors broke, I bought a full replacement motor, which is working to this day without problems. Both motors 32 and 34 are easy to find, and usually it is cheaper to buy full replacements and avoid going through the hassle of buying and replacing springs.

Skihawx wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:11 pm If it were on this side of the pond I'd be interested. I am sorry I didn't bid higher on the 194 that was auctioned over here recently. It looks to me that the cabinet is in better shape than the tone arm. Maybe someone switched it recently.

Steve wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:14 am

epigramophone wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:09 am

Steve wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:03 am

That was an incredibly cheaply 193 though, sold during C19 period of inactivity and hardly typical of where the true value lies. In fact it might even be the cheapest one sold in the past 40 years?

So what is the "true value"? Certainly nowhere near £2000 for the eBay example under discussion.
In addition to the faults which you have already mentioned, the listing states "Motor winds up and spins but will not play a record; requires attention or overhaul". The prospect of overhauling the No.34 motor will put many prospective bidders off.

Well, for a start I'd say the one at SAS was worth around £2000-2500 and not the derisory £900 it sold for. I've seen 163's advertised (and on the continent, selling) for almost that, which is ridiculous. Back to the one on Ebay, it's got to be worth £1200-1500, surely? Given that the seller is accepting offers under £1995 I'm still surprised no one has managed to negotiate a keen price on it yet. I don't think the motor is the main issue though: the larger re-entrants have rarely found homes in the UK. It seems UK collectors in the main tend to prioritise smaller items in general and / or items that need a lot of restoration and can be bought inexpensively.

A well known dealer summarised it well, many many years. On the continent the major collectors are wealthy businessmen who can afford to indulge to buy the best items and usually display their collections in purpose built rooms. In the UK most collectors are retired and whilst perhaps financially "comfortable" are satisfied to have project machines that they can restore and tinker with in their sheds when their wives are out playing bingo! I knew of one such collector, now sadly no longer with us, whose wife would not even let him display any machines in the house so they were relegated to an under stairs cupboard.

poodling around wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:47 am

Steve wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:14 am

epigramophone wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:09 am

So what is the "true value"? Certainly nowhere near £2000 for the eBay example under discussion.
In addition to the faults which you have already mentioned, the listing states "Motor winds up and spins but will not play a record; requires attention or overhaul". The prospect of overhauling the No.34 motor will put many prospective bidders off.

Well, for a start I'd say the one at SAS was worth around £2000-2500 and not the derisory £900 it sold for. I've seen 163's advertised (and on the continent, selling) for almost that, which is ridiculous. Back to the one on Ebay, it's got to be worth £1200-1500, surely? Given that the seller is accepting offers under £1995 I'm still surprised no one has managed to negotiate a keen price on it yet. I don't think the motor is the main issue though: the larger re-entrants have rarely found homes in the UK. It seems UK collectors in the main tend to prioritise smaller items in general and / or items that need a lot of restoration and can be bought inexpensively.

A well known dealer summarised it well, many many years. On the continent the major collectors are wealthy businessmen who can afford to indulge to buy the best items and usually display their collections in purpose built rooms. In the UK most collectors are retired and whilst perhaps financially "comfortable" are satisfied to have project machines that they can restore and tinker with in their sheds when their wives are out playing bingo! I knew of one such collector, now sadly no longer with us, whose wife would not even let him display any machines in the house so they were relegated to an under stairs cupboard.

Ha ha ha !!!!

'under stairs cupboard' for a gramophone collection ? How large was this cupboard ?

Steve wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 5:25 pm

poodling around wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:47 am

Steve wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:14 am

Well, for a start I'd say the one at SAS was worth around £2000-2500 and not the derisory £900 it sold for. I've seen 163's advertised (and on the continent, selling) for almost that, which is ridiculous. Back to the one on Ebay, it's got to be worth £1200-1500, surely? Given that the seller is accepting offers under £1995 I'm still surprised no one has managed to negotiate a keen price on it yet. I don't think the motor is the main issue though: the larger re-entrants have rarely found homes in the UK. It seems UK collectors in the main tend to prioritise smaller items in general and / or items that need a lot of restoration and can be bought inexpensively.

A well known dealer summarised it well, many many years. On the continent the major collectors are wealthy businessmen who can afford to indulge to buy the best items and usually display their collections in purpose built rooms. In the UK most collectors are retired and whilst perhaps financially "comfortable" are satisfied to have project machines that they can restore and tinker with in their sheds when their wives are out playing bingo! I knew of one such collector, now sadly no longer with us, whose wife would not even let him display any machines in the house so they were relegated to an under stairs cupboard.

Ha ha ha !!!!

'under stairs cupboard' for a gramophone collection ? How large was this cupboard ?

Average UK household staircase: 2820mm x 840mm @ 42 degree pitch. I trust this is helpful?

poodling around wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 6:38 pm

Steve wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 5:25 pm

poodling around wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:47 am

Ha ha ha !!!!

'under stairs cupboard' for a gramophone collection ? How large was this cupboard ?

Average UK household staircase: 2820mm x 840mm @ 42 degree pitch. I trust this is helpful?

Very.

So, if it is 1 meter wide then there are about 1.1 cubic meters. Enough for maybe 10 portable gramophones or one or two dissected EMG's.

Although this does strain credulity somewhat it does seem possible.

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:34 am

Skihawx wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:11 pm If it were on this side of the pond I'd be interested. I am sorry I didn't bid higher on the 194 that was auctioned over here recently. It looks to me that the cabinet is in better shape than the tone arm. Maybe someone switched it recently.

Wasn't it sold for $800.00 in California, US? The buy was very very lucky.