Edison Diamond disc machines in the UK?

[Steve]

I have not looked closely at the adapters, but it wouldn’t be difficult to make one to play Pathé discs on an Edison machine. I’m not sure why you’d want to, though. In general the Edison machines are well built, and they can sound really great,nbut IMHO, the horns are somewhat limiting, being relatively small compared to what they really should have been to get truly great sound.

I know of only one Edison machine in the UK, located at a friend’s place in Canterbury. I’m sure there are others, but in all my looking at and looking for phonographs in the UK, I’ve only ever come across that one example.

The biggest problem for Edison machines, is the selection of music available. Most of it is really nothing I’d want to listen to. Edison controlled everything that was recorded on his records, and had recorded what he liked. I can’t say that he had very interesting or broad taste in music. Here and there you find some gems, but nothing remotely exciting to me.

I think I've counted about a dozen DD machines that have sold at auction in the UK since 1990. That is a tiny number.

The horn size you mention is probably what The Gramophone called out as its principle weakness back in the day when repertoire and scarcity of discs wouldn't have been an issue.

[anchorman]

One day maybe I’ll have space for an Edison machine and can figure a way to add a bigger horn. I’m not sure how much it would really help, as I’m pretty sure Edison tailored the recording to match their small horns. But it would be interesting to try, nonetheless!

[CarlosV]

One day maybe I’ll have space for an Edison machine and can figure a way to add a bigger horn. I’m not sure how much it would really help, as I’m pretty sure Edison tailored the recording to match their small horns. But it would be interesting to try, nonetheless!

There is a couple of Edison machines with quite good-sized horns: it is their last line, made for the electrically recorded diamond discs. One is called the Schubert (the one I have), and the other the Beethoven. Mechanically both are identical, horns and all, and include the gear to play the long playing records (20 minutes per side). Their sound does not get near the quality of the orthophonics and re-entrants that were contemporaneous to them, but they sound better than the internal and external horn machines of the acoustic period. But if you are really interested in getting the best sound, get an Expert or an EMG and adapters to play Edison and Pathé records. It will not sound better than that. Graham did some experiments on one of his machines years ago, see

(Double-click the video above or click this link to go to the video on YouTube.)

.

[drh]

If, as someone said, the diamond disc machines found in England are mostly table models, that would account for the "small horn" issue. Edison's disc machines prior to the late Edisonic machines came with three sizes of horn, and those in the table models, not suprisingly, were the smallest. The "laboratory model" uprights had the largest and had the best sound. Edison's mechanism really didn't lend itself to tabletop designs; it was just too big and heavy, and the company's product line was overwhelmingly devoted to floor models.

As to the records, Edison's label may not be the most adventurous for popular music, but it was surprisingly strong if you happen to collect operatic and, to a lesser extent, classical selections. People like to dump on it because "Edison chose the music and had no taste," but any label that could count Claudia Muzio, Jacques Urlus, Margarete Matzenauer, Lucrezia Bori, Elisabeth Schumann, Giovanni Zenatello, Albert Spalding, and Carl Flesch in its roster wasn't doing too badly, leaving aside an array of others who were distinguished artists at the time but are not so well remembered today (I suspect in part precisely because they recorded for Edison, whose records became essentially unplayable for decades after 1929).

As to playing Pathé records, Edison machines even with adapters are not well suited for the outside start discs and are particularly at sea for center start, since the records go the opposite direction from the machine's mechanical feed.

[CarlosV]

The biggest problem for Edison machines, is the selection of music available. Most of it is really nothing I’d want to listen to. Edison controlled everything that was recorded on his records, and had recorded what he liked. I can’t say that he had very interesting or broad taste in music. Here and there you find some gems, but nothing remotely exciting to me.

The story that Edison controlled all recordings is not real - he established strict - and somewhat weird - rules to his technicians as to what should and should not be issued, and did some listen sampling every now and then, but if you account for the enormous number of records Edison issued you will conclude that no single person would be capable to listen and control each issue individually, and Edison certainly had other more important things to do with his time. Moreover, the Edison catalogue is not really much different from that of the major labels of the time, like Victor or Columbia: lots of dance music (waltzes, foxtrots, one-steps, ragtimes etc), marches, light classics, salon music, operatics, vaudeville songs, sentimental songs, popular singers (Billy Murray, Vaughan de Leath, Al Bernard etc), instrumental solos (banjo, concertina, trumpet, piano, cello, violin, xylophone etc), hillbilly songs, and later in the production, even some jazz and blues (Memphis Five, Fletcher Henderson, Frisco Jazz Band, Phil Napoleon, Mamie Smith etc). There was also a full series of foreign music, with German, Mexican, English, Italian, Portuguese and others, dedicated to the immigrant market in the USA. What may create the false impression that Edison recorded music was dull is that its production ended before 1930, while other labels more or less survived to record music that is more familiar to modern ears, but you make the comparison within the production period 1912-1929, there is not really any significant difference other than specific artists that had exclusive contracts, and emphasis that some label placed on specific markets (like the Columbia investment on the blues craze in the 20s).

[drh]

One day maybe I’ll have space for an Edison machine and can figure a way to add a bigger horn. I’m not sure how much it would really help, as I’m pretty sure Edison tailored the recording to match their small horns. But it would be interesting to try, nonetheless!

There is a couple of Edison machines with quite good-sized horns: it is their last line, made for the electrically recorded diamond discs. One is called the Schubert (the one I have), and the other the Beethoven. Mechanically both are identical, horns and all, and include the gear to play the long playing records (20 minutes per side). Their sound does not get near the quality of the orthophonics and re-entrants that were contemporaneous to them, but they sound better than the internal and external horn machines of the acoustic period. But if you are really interested in getting the best sound, get an Expert or an EMG and adapters to play Edison and Pathé records. It will not sound better than that. Graham did some experiments on one of his machines years ago, see

(Double-click the video above or click this link to go to the video on YouTube.)

.

*Acoustically* the two Edisonic machines are identical, but not quite so mechanically; the Schubert had a single-spring motor, the Beethoven a two-spring. The Schubert, at least, did not come equipped for long play discs, and its single spring wouldn't have run long enough for the 12" ones; I don't know that the Beethoven did, but I don't know to the contrary, either. I do know of at least one Schubert that has been retrofitted with an extra spring barrel and LP gearing; one of our fellow members has written of having it.

A while back, I put together an article with accompanying video directly comparing an Orthophonic Credenza and Edisonic Schubert playing the same Edison electric recording, which I have in both diamond disc and Edison lateral form. Here's a link: https://www.tnt-audio.com/vintage/ediso ... 20of%20its

And for some flavor of what different acoustic system machines could do, here's my similar article-with-video that compares World War I songs played on Edison cylinder and disc machines, a Pathé diffusor, and a Victor V. https://www.tnt-audio.com/vintage/world ... ngs_e.html The Edison disc is played on a C-250 upright, which had the largest of the "standard" (i.e., pre-Edisonic) Edison horns.

In each case, the video is embedded at the end of the article.

[drh]

The biggest problem for Edison machines, is the selection of music available. Most of it is really nothing I’d want to listen to. Edison controlled everything that was recorded on his records, and had recorded what he liked. I can’t say that he had very interesting or broad taste in music. Here and there you find some gems, but nothing remotely exciting to me.

The story that Edison controlled all recordings is not real - he established strict - and somewhat weird - rules to his technicians as to what should and should not be issued, and did some listen sampling every now and then, but if you account for the enormous number of records Edison issued you will conclude that no single person would be capable to listen and control each issue individually, and Edison certainly had other more important things to do with his time. Moreover, the Edison catalogue is not really much different from that of the major labels of the time, like Victor or Columbia: lots of dance music (waltzes, foxtrots, one-steps, ragtimes etc), marches, light classics, salon music, operatics, vaudeville songs, sentimental songs, popular singers (Billy Murray, Vaughan de Leath, Al Bernard etc), instrumental solos (banjo, concertina, trumpet, piano, cello, violin, xylophone etc), hillbilly songs, and later in the production, even some jazz and blues (Memphis Five, Fletcher Henderson, Frisco Jazz Band, Phil Napoleon, Mamie Smith etc). There was also a full series of foreign music, with German, Mexican, English, Italian, Portuguese and others, dedicated to the immigrant market in the USA. What may create the false impression that Edison recorded music was dull is that its production ended before 1930, while other labels more or less survived to record music that is more familiar to modern ears, but you make the comparison within the production period 1912-1929, there is not really any significant difference other than specific artists that had exclusive contracts, and emphasis that some label placed on specific markets (like the Columbia investment on the blues craze in the 20s).

This may be the most sensible thing I've ever read about the Edison catalogue.

[CarlosV]

This may be the most sensible thing I've ever read about the Edison catalogue.

Thanks!

It's interesting what you mentioned in the previous post, that the Schubert had a single spring. Mine (bought from a UK collection) has two springs, the long play switch gear and the LP head, so I have to conclude that it was custom-fitted.

[drh]

This may be the most sensible thing I've ever read about the Edison catalogue.

Thanks!

It's interesting what you mentioned in the previous post, that the Schubert had a single spring. Mine (bought from a UK collection) has two springs, the long play switch gear and the LP head, so I have to conclude that it was custom-fitted.

Is it actually labeled "Edisonic"? There's been some convincing speculation elsewhere in the forum that the Schubert Edisonic's cabinet was actually a repurposed Long Playing Consolette, the (at least planned) bottom of the dedicated LP line and a machine nobody seems ever to have seen in the flesh. A big point in favor of that idea is that the data plates carry the designation "CLT," with no obvious relationship to the name "Schubert." If your machine is labeled like an LP Console (I think the decal would be "The New Edison" rather than "The Edisonic"), you may very well have "the missing link."

[CarlosV]

[
Is it actually labeled "Edisonic"? There's been some convincing speculation elsewhere in the forum that the Schubert Edisonic's cabinet was actually a repurposed Long Playing Consolette, the (at least planned) bottom of the dedicated LP line and a machine nobody seems ever to have seen in the flesh. A big point in favor of that idea is that the data plates carry the designation "CLT," with no obvious relationship to the name "Schubert." If your machine is labeled like an LP Console (I think the decal would be "The New Edison" rather than "The Edisonic"), you may very well have "the missing link."

Unfortunately, the decal label on the inner back panel reads Edisonic, and the machine cabinet looks identical to other Schuberts apart from the LP switch, so the missing link is still to be found.