The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Victrolaman wrote: Make sure you replace the ruber flange thats on the back of the reproducer with a new one, they are like 7 bucks, that needs to be airtight to, not to mention if its all dry and hard it can ruin your records to because of lack of needle movement.

I commented on this in another thread although no one responded, but can some one please explain how the replacement of the rubber flange has an impact on record wear? The sound quality I can understand because of the need for everything to be air tight, but impact on record wear I just can't understand. If someone could explain I would be very grateful. I assume that I am correct in guessing that the flange being referred to is the rubber part at the back of the soundbox where it joins the tone arm?

S-B-H

Swing Band Heaven wrote:

Victrolaman wrote: Make sure you replace the ruber flange thats on the back of the reproducer with a new one, they are like 7 bucks, that needs to be airtight to, not to mention if its all dry and hard it can ruin your records to because of lack of needle movement.

I commented on this in another thread although no one responded, but can some one please explain how the replacement of the rubber flange has an impact on record wear? The sound quality I can understand because of the need for everything to be air tight, but impact on record wear I just can't understand. If someone could explain I would be very grateful. I assume that I am correct in guessing that the flange being referred to is the rubber part at the back of the soundbox where it joins the tone arm?

S-B-H

To be truthful SBH, the previous post you mention was the first time in over 40 yrs of collecting that I had ever heard of this being a factor. I can understand a new, poorly formed or old, misshapen flange being an issue but not how soft or hard a flange would be. I can understand tracking arc and the turned degree of the soundbox being relevant as well as the articulation of both the U tube and where the tone arm pivots, as well as a badly angled needle bar. If this is a relevant issue, I too would like an explanation on how wear is induced.

Bill

It's really quite simple and logical once you see what I'm talking about in action. A rock hard old flange that was originally meant to provide not only an air seal but compliance (ie ability to move more freely) can't track a record groove with as much "flex" as one which is soft can. Use a mint junk Henry Burr Victor with an old flange in a reproducer that has otherwise been rebulit and play it 10 times with a new needle each time. You'll start seeing grey after about 8 or 9 plays. Replace the flange and flip the disc and do the same thing again. You won't notice the same thing after replacing the flange. I hope this clears up the confusion.

Sean

Ok, so am I to assume that this "compliance" issue with a soundbox is unique to a Victor product? None of my bayonet mounted Grafonola soundboxes have a rubber flange connection nor do several other brands of machines that I own. I have played these machines for years, and have never noticed any damage to the records, many of which were played multiple times on the same machine (with a new needle, of course).
I have a Consolette that has a non-rebuilt Ortho soundbox. I'll look up a "bone" that is in clean condition which has no value and try your experiment. I'm sure there's a Henry Burr in there somewhere!

Bill

Try it, Bill, you'll see what I mean. I wish I could remember who it was that told me to try this several years ago (Greg Bogantz?...Greg, you out there to comment here?). I didn't see how it could matter either at first, but it does.

I'm not a Columbia machine fan to begin with and honestly, I've never played more than a few discs on any I've owned, but my BD has a small rubber flange between the reproducer and tone arm, which seems like it would give some damping action, I replaced it when I rebuilt the reproducer, the original was as brittle as a 4 minute wax amberol! I know Grafonolas didn't use anything, but I always thought they weren't very nice on 78s either.

A lot of off brand machines did use some sort of rubber isolators, though. I've got a nice Pooley floor model with a VTLA #2 knockoff reproducer (branded Pooley) that has the same exact sized flange a #2 has in it, even, which I reaplced. My Wadell music table has one also. Didn't Sonoras use some sort of heavy gasket behind the reproducer as one also? It's been awhile since I've seen one. I know Cheney didn't use anything, but that might be because their reproducers have rubber mounts on the needle bar pivots which would effectively do the same thing. Air leaks in a Cheney are a different story altogether...

Just my $.04
Sean

OrthoSean wrote:It's really quite simple and logical once you see what I'm talking about in action. A rock hard old flange that was originally meant to provide not only an air seal but compliance (ie ability to move more freely) can't track a record groove with as much "flex" as one which is soft can. Use a mint junk Henry Burr Victor with an old flange in a reproducer that has otherwise been rebulit and play it 10 times with a new needle each time. You'll start seeing grey after about 8 or 9 plays. Replace the flange and flip the disc and do the same thing again. You won't notice the same thing after replacing the flange. I hope this clears up the confusion.

Sean

Sorry, I couldn't get past the "play it 10 times" regarding the Henry Burr record!

Bob

The Brits marketed an accessory called "The Lifebelt" that was designed to give more complience/flex to the reproducer. It was essentually a rubber pipe that was placed between the soundbox & tonearm to keep record wear to a minimum.
Here's a link to "The Gramophone" magazine, and a write-up about the Lifebelt in 1926.

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/Ju ... E+LIFEBELT

And a picture of an original Lifebelf, courtesy of The Colonel from the UK gramophone forum.

OrthoSean wrote:
Didn't Sonoras use some sort of heavy gasket behind the reproducer as one also?

Many Paillard soundboxs do indeed use a rubber flange. I'm not sure what system Paillard used on their Sonora boxes, but the Maestrophone box below allows the reproducer throat to move via the rubber flange, independant of the soundbox itself.
Some Thorens boxes use designs of various kinds as well, including the basic "Exhibition" style flange, as seen on Decca branded Thorens box found on the trench model.

Interesting. I've just not heard of this before - the article in the Gramophone is an interesting read (It is such a great on line resource) Not sure if all of their claims for the lifebelt are real or wishful thinking - but an interesting concept all the same. I particularly like the claim about using the lifebelt and getting improved bass with the tuba in Uranus sounds painful!

OrthoSean wrote: Didn't Sonoras use some sort of heavy gasket behind the reproducer as one also?

Regular gasket material fits under the plate on the back of the Sonora Superfine #whatever