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I suppose I could change from soft tone to medium tone, but I was under the impression that soft tone needles were far better for record preservation. Then again, I have only been a collector for 6 months and only have 1 machine so my experience is particularly limited. Do medium tone needles cause damage? As almost all of the records in my collection are electrical as opposed to acoustic and I'm using a HMV102 I thought soft tone needles were essential in order not to damage the records??

phono10 wrote:Playing a record will eventually wear it out unless you use a modern turntable and stylus. Records were never not meant to play forever. I think a little black dust is to be expected if you play a record with a steel needle.

This is an integral part of our hobby and I am aware of the fact that my over a century year old records deteriorate when reproduced with contemporary equipment. Hence I allow myself plenty of time and devote each record on the turntable my fullest attention. For muzak I have a CD player.

Hi HMV1931:

I'm wondering what records you're trying to play. Many 78s, especially those produced after about 1935, were really not intended to be played on acoustic gramophones, in spite of the fact that all-acoustic models continued to be sold for about 20 years after that time. I've found this to be especially true for most blue or black label Deccas, Capitol records, Red label Columbias, later RCA Victors, etc. Acoustically recorded records, as well as early electrics, play just fine on my victrolas, with no noticeable black tipping.

If your sound box is in good condition, and the needle bar pivot is properly adjusted for maximum compliance and minimum resistance, it would probably not need to be replaced. (You can test for compliance when you insert a needle. You should actually feel the needle bar plunge inward very slightly when you tighten the thumbscrew.)

One option would be to try to hunt down some NOS fiber (bamboo) or thorn (cactus) needles. Most British collectors swear by them.

Ortho_Fan wrote:Hi HMV1931:
I'm wondering what records you're trying to play. Many 78s, especially those produced after about 1935, were really not intended to be played on acoustic gramophones, in spite of the fact that all-acoustic models continued to be sold for about 20 years after that time. I've found this to be especially true for most blue or black label Deccas, Capitol records, Red label Columbias, later RCA Victors, etc.

Most of my 78s are post-1935. I've never had a problem with record wear, black dust, or other effects sometimes attributed to acoustic phonographs (in my case, VV-XI). This topic comes up periodically on the board. I believe that the condition of the sound box is the number one factor here, followed by steel needle quality. I won't comment on the experiences and convictions of others in re: this subject, but I continue to enjoy *all* of my "shellac" 78s in a guilt-free environment.

Henry wrote: Most of my 78s are post-1935. I've never had a problem with record wear, black dust, or other effects sometimes attributed to acoustic phonographs (in my case, VV-XI)....)

Now that you mention it, my Vic. V -- which I, unfortunately, seldom play anymore--will play just about any shellac record without damage; none that I can spot, anyway. I know I've played a few Capitol records on it, as well as some black Deccas, using soft and medium tone needles, and it performs very well, though without the sonic punch you'd get from an electrical phonograph, or even an Orthophonic. (Does your XI have an Exhibition sound box or a #2?) I've always attributed this to the fact that the sound box was restored by the late Bob Waltrip, using one of his experimental methods involving a front (conventional) white tube gasket coupled with a silicone back gasket. Bob also did some tweaking to the needle bar springs, themselves, though exactly what he did, I never found out.

I do agree, as I noted in my above post, that the sound box's condition is certainly a factor. If out of whack, it will chew up records like nobody's business. For something like the HMV 5a, the needle bar pivot posts have to be carefully adjusted to ensure free movement of the needle bar ONLY in the direction required to track the record groove. If the adjustment is too tight, the needle will scrape the groove, and if too loose, there will be buzzing and blasting.

The quality of the needles is also just as important. I bought a large batch of medium tone steel needles a few years back and have ended up throwing about 10 percent away because they had barbed tips, or were missing their points, altogether. (It's a PITA to have to inspect each needle before using it, but the price was relatively cheap.)

OF

beaumonde wrote:The tips of the various needles are of the same approx. 0.003" diamter (3 mil) -- it's the shank that differs. So a soft tone wouldn't be riding lower in the groove than a loud tone needle.

I'm afraid I totally disagree with this. The taper of the point is much different to start with, and if the groove wall contact is the same, how do you explain sometimes being able to play a well worn disc with a soft tone but a loud tone will grind the record to a hault?
After using many off-brand machines over the years, I've found those that wear records for whatever reason (tracking force or error etc), it's been my experience that soft tone needles cause even more damage than loud tones, which I can only put down to an increased PSI of a soft tone within the groove.
This is all using original NOS needles though, as I seldom buy or use newly manufactured needles.

Ortho_Fan wrote:

Henry wrote: Most of my 78s are post-1935. I've never had a problem with record wear, black dust, or other effects sometimes attributed to acoustic phonographs (in my case, VV-XI)....)

Now that you mention it, my Vic. V -- which I, unfortunately, seldom play anymore--will play just about any shellac record without damage; none that I can spot, anyway. I know I've played a few Capitol records on it, as well as some black Deccas, using soft and medium tone needles, and it performs very well, though without the sonic punch you'd get from an electrical phonograph, or even an Orthophonic. (Does your XI have an Exhibition sound box or a #2?) I've always attributed this to the fact that the sound box was restored by the late Bob Waltrip, using one of his experimental methods involving a front (conventional) white tube gasket coupled with a silicone back gasket. Bob also did some tweaking to the needle bar springs, themselves, though exactly what he did, I never found out.

I do agree, as I noted in my above post, that the sound box's condition is certainly a factor. If out of whack, it will chew up records like nobody's business. For something like the HMV 5a, the needle bar pivot posts have to be carefully adjusted to ensure free movement of the needle bar ONLY in the direction required to track the record groove. If the adjustment is too tight, the needle will scrape the groove, and if too loose, there will be buzzing and blasting.

The quality of the needles is also just as important. I bought a large batch of medium tone steel needles a few years back and have ended up throwing about 10 percent away because they had barbed tips, or were missing their points, altogether. (It's a PITA to have to inspect each needle before using it, but the price was relatively cheap.)

OF

My XI has the Exhibition with the narrow tone arm (i.e., original taper tube, not the "fat" one). The Exh. was rebuilt by Victrola Repair Service, using the pliable white tube gaskets and a new back flange, but it still has the original diaphragm (at least AFAIK; I haven't changed it). I tweaked the adjustment after the rebuild, as one of the gaskets came back pinched, and at that time I also R/R'ed the diaphragm (it had to come out anyway to fix the pinch), adjusted the springs and needle bar according to Victor's procedure (n.bar *barely* touching the diaphragm), and resealed the needle bar at the diaphragm with brown beeswax. Subsequently I added a large felt gasket between the back flange and the sound box body; the air seal is now real tight. I never get blasting, buzzing, or tinny distortion, and I always use a fresh soft-tone needle, after examining the tip! After using hundreds of Bry-O-Phonics, I have found only one defective one (no point!). If I'm damaging my records, I have yet to see or hear any evidence of it (that doesn't mean that it may not be happening, I just can't tell whether it is or not). So I guess you could call me "a happy Exhibitionist"!

Henry wrote:.... So I guess you could call me "a happy Exhibitionist"!

It's amazing how good & full they sound, when properly rebuilt.

gramophoneshane wrote:... how do you explain sometimes being able to play a well worn disc with a soft tone but a loud tone will grind the record to a hault?

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the soft tone needle's tendency to flex independently of the needle-bar/diaphragm, as noted here --

"The only other possible difference between soft-tone and loud-tone needles would be due to the variation in their rigidity. The thicker needle would tend to bend and flex less under the motion of the record grooves and would transmit more energy to the diaphragm. Actually, this is what is occurring, but is an oversimplification of the process. Without going into technical derivations, the real differences in acoustic performance between the needles can be attributed to the variation in "dynamic stiffness". Stiffness is a measurement of how much a cantilevered object bends as a constant force is applied. However, if the applied force is dynamic, that is, vibrating back and forth, the stiffness will also vary as a function of the applied frequency..."
FROM "Performance Differences Between "Loud" and "Soft" Tone Needles" by Paul Edie -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/Needle%20Article.htm

I'm sure someone familiar with the science of motion, or whateverthehell it's called, could shed some light.

I do agree on that needle tip being the same, if its the same why do soft needles drag the record to a halt on some records and loud tone will play though without the problem? It must be riding differently in some respect? I don't however think I ever ran into that situation where one will play with a soft and not loud.

I find that edisons are the most prone to black dirt on the needle. And as to wearing them out, which I suppose is of course happening, I only can say that a wonderful batch of never sold victrola red seals, mostly symphonic from the early 20's which I obtained in the late 50's play just as good to my ear now as they did then and have nothing but mechanical machine use. I think most of the bad records I see are damaged by needles that were not changed as they should be, those are usually unplayable at some point.

gramophoneshane wrote:

beaumonde wrote:The tips of the various needles are of the same approx. 0.003" diamter (3 mil) -- it's the shank that differs. So a soft tone wouldn't be riding lower in the groove than a loud tone needle.

I'm afraid I totally disagree with this. The taper of the point is much different to start with, and if the groove wall contact is the same, how do you explain sometimes being able to play a well worn disc with a soft tone but a loud tone will grind the record to a hault?
After using many off-brand machines over the years, I've found those that wear records for whatever reason (tracking force or error etc), it's been my experience that soft tone needles cause even more damage than loud tones, which I can only put down to an increased PSI of a soft tone within the groove.
This is all using original NOS needles though, as I seldom buy or use newly manufactured needles.

Is there some valid reason not to use newly mfg. Needles. I have used newly mfg. Bagshaw Brand medium tone needles for quite some time, and have never been disap-POINTED with the results. Bagshaw is one of oldest and highly respected firms that have been mfg. steel phonograph needles since the early days of recorded sound.