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Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 5:20 pm
by mjbarnes
Listening and thinking about this lately I have noticed some sounds -- cymbals, the letter S -- don't come out well on acoustic players, but were successfully recorded acoustically. Some of the band music Edison recorded on DD seems such high quality I would have guessed it was electrically recorded, though I know from the dates it was not. I still enjoy my Triumph with an O reproducer restored by Wyatt Marcus. For comparisons I have been going to the i78s.org site, putting on headphones. Even the inconsistencies are interesting. Sometimes those early sound engineers made wonderfully clear recordings pre-electric. There seems to have been continuous improvement from 1900 to the mid-twenties, even ignoring the electric transformation.
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 6:22 pm
by gramophone-georg
epigramophone wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 4:13 am
I am at heart a machine collector who also collects good records to play on them.
For me the fascination of our hobby is listening to records played on the machines for which they were designed.
I have heard old records played on modern equipment, and for me there is always something missing.
If I want to hear Caruso, for example, on modern equipment I play one of the excellent CD transfers available.
I also play CD compilations of 1920's jazz and dance band music for company when in my workshop.
I do not obsess about record wear. I have records from my father's (1914-2010) and grandfather's (1885-1963) collections which show no visible signs of wear from playing with steel needles, because they changed the needles at the recommended intervals and "ran in" the points for a few revolutions before they entered the recorded grooves.
Like vintage cars, gramophones and phonographs need regular gentle use to keep them running well.
Completely spot on. I also clean my records regularly. Keeping machines in top condition is also crucial. I also prefer driving cars that are 50- plus years old. I always go through them COMPLETELY before putting them on the road, and then do not hesitate to use them as if they were a modern car.
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 6:56 pm
by Inigo
mjbarnes wrote: Fri May 16, 2025 5:20 pm
Sometimes those early sound engineers made wonderfully clear recordings pre-electric. There seems to have been continuous improvement from 1900 to the mid-twenties, even ignoring the electric transformation.
True, and there are acoustic recordings which sound wonderful!
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 10:41 pm
by Damfino59
What say you? Do you prefer the original sound, or the ability to hear a clean, extended frequency range to the song?
Marc
[/quote]
I have several nice acoustic playback machines. Cylinder & disc.
I also have a modern setup with a modified Technics 1200 turntable, Souvenir preamp, Cambridge receiver and vintage restored Advent speakers. Also an early ACT cylinder Stanton pickup.
But I do get more enjoyment out of listening to the old technology.
But I will say what you did with the 52000’s series Edison disc is fantastic. What type of phono cartridge did you use? And what .7 mil stylus?
I still use my Shure M44 & Stanton 500 series.
Glenn
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 3:02 pm
by Marc Hildebrant
Glenn,
For Diamond Discs, the stylus has to ride on the bottom of the sound groove. I found that the Re-Loop OM Black 0.7 mil "DF" stylus and Ortofon cartridge that came with my RELOOP RP4000MK2 turntable was just right. This turntable has adjustable speeds and is a solid device.
Marc
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 4:34 pm
by Damfino59
Marc Hildebrant wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 3:02 pm
Glenn,
For Diamond Discs, the stylus has to ride on the bottom of the sound groove. I found that the Re-Loop OM Black 0.7 mil "DF" stylus and Ortofon cartridge that came with my RELOOP RP4000MK2 turntable was just right. This turntable has adjustable speeds and is a solid device.
Marc
Marc,
Thank you so much for this. I’ve also of the opinion a smaller stylus does work better on Edison discs. Even after using a 3.7 from Expert stylus.
The Reloop turntable looks to be a robust quality unit. I still use my modified Technics 1200 purchased from KAB back in 1995. Nice to know the DJ business keeps us collectors able to get new hardware!
Thanks,
Glenn
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 7:09 pm
by Marc Hildebrant
Glenn,
I write about the optimum stylus size in my Music Handbook. A small size can be traced to Edison's patent around 1900 which describes an elliptical shape.
The 3.75 mil DD radius was needed to support the heavy reproducer weight, which in turn was needed to produce a loud size via mechanical means.
Marc
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 10:11 am
by MrRom92
Marc Hildebrant wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:09 pm
Glenn,
I write about the optimum stylus size in my Music Handbook. A small size can be traced to Edison's patent around 1900 which describes an elliptical shape.
The 3.75 mil DD radius was needed to support the heavy reproducer weight, which in turn was needed to produce a loud size via mechanical means.
Marc
This is where I get confused. You say that a microgroove stylus seems to perform well on a diamond disc, and this is something I’ve read before elsewhere as well.
But in the case of Edison Long Play - They have a significantly finer groove than the normal diamond discs, however it was suggested to me that a .0015” stylus would be optimal for them. This would be even bigger than .0007” microgroove stylus that is commonly said to perform well on a normal diamond disc.
Something doesn’t quite add up for me!
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 12:03 pm
by Marc Hildebrant
MrRom92,
Keep in mind that Diamond Discs are vertical modulation vs the 78-lateral method. Also, the early machines did not have the vast improvements made with diamond stylus and magnetic cartridges.
Various research in the 1930's measured the amount of music distortion caused by stylus size and suggested that small stylus sizes were the best. Edison knew this but had to use larger sizes for practical reasons.
Thee 0.7 mil radius I used works really well and produces a "clean" sound with low high frequency distortion; at least to my old ears!
Marc
Re: How do you listen to Old Music ?
Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 10:16 pm
by MrRom92
Marc Hildebrant wrote: Mon May 19, 2025 12:03 pm
MrRom92,
Keep in mind that Diamond Discs are vertical modulation vs the 78-lateral method. Also, the early machines did not have the vast improvements made with diamond stylus and magnetic cartridges.
Various research in the 1930's measured the amount of music distortion caused by stylus size and suggested that small stylus sizes were the best. Edison knew this but had to use larger sizes for practical reasons.
Thee 0.7 mil radius I used works really well and produces a "clean" sound with low high frequency distortion; at least to my old ears!
Marc
This is all true, but it would suggest to me that an equal or even smaller stylus is optimal for ELP though - not larger!