The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Don't always believe the seller either. Her story seems very odd. Calls at 4 am are typically emergency related. I answer a call at 4 am and its some dope calling about a phonograph, I hang up! She may have made up the story thinking in her own mind that it legitimized her selling before 9:00. She probably sold it the day before and forgot about it until you showed up!

Most people don't understand the ethics of being a seller and some others don't care about ethics.

Steve

it really sounds like an unfortunate situation, as do the other stories mentioned above - no one wants to miss out on something like this, that they've "found" and then built up in their mind to the point they already virtually own it despite having neither paid for nor taken possession of it just yet.

ethics are one thing, but so too is making a sale when you want to sell something, or simply making every effort to buy something when you want to buy something. regardless of what you may think - based on a listing or sale or auction description - it never hurts to ask, if you really want something then and there and have the money, if the seller will sell it to you. and vice versa. in downsizing my "collection" or whatever you'd call it over the past few years - from about a hundred machines or so down to about 30 - I've tried all routes, ebay, craigslist, this forum, word of mouth, local antique stores, etc... it can take quite a while and often, through some venues more than others (especially craigslist), as a seller you deal with a lot of flakes... from the various scam attempts to the people who ask more and more questions and for additional photos of this or that then disappear, to the people who DEFINITELY DEFINITELY WANT IT NOW I'M COMING TONIGHT and then just never show up, no phone call, nothing... to the people who similarly express interest, come to your house, spend a few hours playing various records on various machines to see which one they like best, before leaving undecided... and then, in a couple of cases, emailing a few days later to ask for restoration advice about another machine they found cheaper somewhere else.

barring of course that dealer mentioned above who took the potential purchases out of the buyer's hand and handed them over instead to his friends who appeared just before the money exchanged hands, which really does raise the issue of ethics and such... regarding the other accounts, when you're trying to sell something, dealing with all the crap mentioned above, when someone shows up with cash in hand ready to finalize things then and there, especially if that person is offering what you believe is a fair price (basically, an amount you're comfortable with), then in this day and age, you'd be crazy to wait, to tell them to go away or come back later... especially because, say, your garage sale was scheduled to start at 8 a.m. and it's only 7:45 or 7 or 6 or whatever and - what? - it just wouldn't be fair to the potential people who might show up later who just might be interested in buying what this person is ready to buy and who also just might be willing then and there to pay what you're asking?

when something rare or special - a phonograph or whatever - happens to surface and becomes available for sale, there will most likely be more than one person interested who wants it. just because you're not the person who ends up with it doesn't necessarily mean what happened was unethical, even if an auction was ended early, or a sale made before the sale as a whole was scheduled to begin or whatever.

Andersun wrote:Don't always believe the seller either. Her story seems very odd. Calls at 4 am are typically emergency related. I answer a call at 4 am and its some dope calling about a phonograph, I hang up! She may have made up the story thinking in her own mind that it legitimized her selling before 9:00. She probably sold it the day before and forgot about it until you showed up!

Most people don't understand the ethics of being a seller and some others don't care about ethics.

Steve

Exactly. The 4 AM story is ,I suspect, " baloney" to quote my grandmother. She sold it the day before...or had no intention of selling it to begin with and was using it as bait for the rest of the sale, which is another thing that sellers do. I've had them tell me " Oh my daughter( son, grandson, niece, drug dealer) decided they wanted it." Private sellers often justify the most egregious lapses in ethics by saying " Well, there are so many dealers...."

JRT

I'm sure that all of us out there in the trenches have been hit by this "bomb" more times than could be counted. I started as a train collector in the 1960's before the word collectable was known. People were happy to get the junk out of their basement into my waiting hands. By the mid 70's that all changed. Train collectors were in all out brawls over toy trains at shows and I stopped going and put my toys away and began my phonograph collection where life was still civilized , for a while. When money enters the equation it seems that all rules are put aside. The last tag sale I went to about ten years ago, a women who cut in line was thrown through the front plate glass window. I was inside already and got a great find for my tag sale swan song.

Since then I watch things appear on Craigs list and bet myself how long before the wolf pack gets it. I try but I don't have the stomach for it, especially when I get to the house and the prize is being taken out after being promised that I am first in line. The final blow comes when I see it on Ebay for ten times the price that night.

I'm not surprised by anything anymore. The laws of the jungle will be in play for the near future until the term "collectable" goes the way of the buggy whip when all the 20 year old's inherit grandpa's junk and puts it out for free pick up. Then there will be a rebirth of the hobby where nobody asks "what's it worth" as the first words out of their mouths but "WOW , that is so interesting, I would like to find one also. Find not buy. I miss those days.

Just for reference, here is the ad. No mistake about the hours. So sad!

A few years ago, I had a similar incident. A person called me and told me they had a nice VV XI for sale. It was an early floor model. I said I was interested and I'll be over to look and possibly buy it. The price was a reasonable price of $175.00 in those days. I saw the machine and it was almost mint. The seller told me that I would have to wait for the sale. I told her no problem, I'll come back. I came back an hour before the sale and was the first in line. When the sale started, the seller gave me a sheepish grin and told me the machine was sold. Needless to say, I was pissed off. I asked her if she got the $175.00, and she did. I gave her a BS story about how the machine was super rare and I was going to give her $1000.00 because I wanted the machine so bad. Her jaw dropped because she lost a "windfall" Then she gave me this glare like she wanted to kill me. I smiled back and once in my car, I busted out laughing. Years later, I got a call from the buyer asking me if I would fix the machine and I told him no. I called my fellow collectors and told them the story and not to fix that machine. I don't know if he sold it or got it repaired. What come around, goes around.
Harvey Kravitz

In my defense:

I'm sure that was frustrating, it's pretty hard as a private party not to get sucked up by the "professional collectors"

Thank You though.... I was so struck by your hateful response and the truck tire rubber burning that I did a bit more research and will be auctioning it off instead to the highest bidder, rather than the guy with a roll of hundreds. Had you been a bit nicer in addition to being patient, I would have taken your name and number and contacted you, as the next in line if the original deal had fallen through. Always best to be above all kind, I'm thinkin it must have been sleep deprivation. I also can imagine it must be very difficult to be a collector these days, dog eat dog world for sure! Let me know if you'd like to be kept in the loop on the auction info.

Forgivness please, I'm just trying to look after my mom's best interest.
P.S. The guy who made the offer early did email first and actually didn't call until 7. He seems like a nice guy (imagine how he feels!) and understood my circumstance.
I hope he gets it!!!
P.S.S. Thanks for the talkingmachine.info blog hook up! Seems like a nice community!

First I was not the buyer, but I do not think the buyer did anything wrong. The frustration on the Colorado collector is certainly understandable. I would feel the same and have previously at estate sales Caps and Union when sales were made early, at the motel ,over the phone on the way to the show.
The whole story here is that the buyer emailed the seller the night before the sale asking for additional information and pictures since he was from out of town and would have to have a non phonograph relative go to the sale for him. The seller responded with additional pictures and her phone number and wanted to deal on it. What would any collector do, not knowing who else she had also emailed. Would they say oh no I don't want to deal until your start time,be honest, I know many many collectors that are very ethical and super honest and I do not know one that would do so. While this is tragic for the people that show up at the sale, it is the sellers fault entirely and not the buyers. If the seller would have provided the additional information requested and said I won't sell it until 9am , that would have been fine and if interested he would have had his relative or ? go to the sale and try to buy it. She offered it to him at the appraised price which is what he agreed to pay. Nothing unethical or running over anyone, he had no idea who else had seen it or was interested in buying it or going to the sale.
The question I have is concerning all the jealous collectors that sent her emails saying it was worth thousands of $$ more than it was and more than twice as much as one sold for at Stantons auction last year, knowing full well that they would never pay that much nor do they know anybody else that would. Are these collectors being good ethical and honest collectors?
I think the lession to be learned is to communicate with a seller immediately not to pre buy, but to establish a relationship, which although not guaranteed will most likely stop them form selling early. Tell them you are interested and will be at teh sale and caution them not to presell. Apparently a minority opinion but mine the Flea

The two posts above are a little confusing to me since they seem to make reference to events that aren't mentioned elsewhere, but I'd like to comment on them, as best as I can understand them.

It seems that the seller placed an ad stating specifically when the sale would take place, then sold a very desirable item before anyone had a chance to see it, other that the one person who basically jumped in line. This is presented to us as ethical behaviour because it was what was best for the seller, and anyone else would have done the same thing (I can only imagine the public reaction if a government contract was given in the same manner). Truly, this is some new meaning of "ethical" that I'm not familiar with.

As far as the remark about being kind, yea the tire screeching was probably over the top, but it was what was best for the disappointed buyer, and anyone else would have done the same thing, so I guess that makes it socially acceptable behaviour.

Regarding being kept in the loop for anything you'd be selling; I'm not a potential buyer, but if I was, you strike me as just the sort of person that I would not care to buy anything from. Rather, you come across as someone who would do anything to come out on top, (you've already, if I understand you correctly, jerked the rug out from under at least two potential buyers) and then present some fol-de-rol about how you behaved ethically.

Mistakenly thought the machine was up on ebay, so I tried to delete this post but couldn't figure out how to remove the whole message.. sorry..

Larry