Victor 19814 Waring's Pennsylvanians

[Lenoirstreetguy]

I don't think that's so. The Western Electric system always used condenser mics from the get go. Carbon mics produced a hiss which was audible in the recordings. If you look at pics of the early recording sessions you'll note the mic sitting on a box which I understand was the pre-amp. This was the Western Electric type 394 capacitor microphone. It was developed by Christopher Wente in 1917. Western Electric had developed a double carbon button mic at the same time which was extensively used in broadcast work but not, apparently, with the recording system.

Jim

[scullylathe]

Being an engineer who has studied historic recording technologies extensively I can tell you the first installations were Western Electric carbon mics in the 1A housing. I have one, as well as a D-spec recorder which would have cut the records we all collect and love. Condenser mics were developing since the mid-teens and within a couple of years (1927-28) started to be used in recording with the Western Electric systems, but the first were carbon. Reference this article: http://www.stokowski.org/Development_of ... ording.htm This site has a lot of good historic information, as with many histories written it's not without some inaccuracies here and there, but for the most part it's one of the best online resources.

[Lenoirstreetguy]

Interesting that you mention that site, because I read that piece a few months ago and thought it incorrect. I am going to have to check with Thomas Rhodes who is working on a book about the Western Electric development of electrical recordings.He has told me that it was condenser from the beginning.
Quite some years ago the Journal of the British Institute of Recorded Sound did an extensive series of articles on recording technology and in these it was stated that the carbon mic was never used in the recording system as presented to Victor and Columbia. I could be wrong...and often am... but the pre-amp which is mentioned in the Stokowski site would seem to imply a condenser system because a carbon mic wouldn't need a pre-amp, no?
Stay tuned!

Jim

[scullylathe]

Victor studio, no condenser mic here, sides issued from this setup...

[Lenoirstreetguy]

I'm going to cut and paste my e mails to Tom Rhodes, ,,,who is the dean of the Electrola message board. About two years ago I wrote Huffman, of the Stokowski site about this very issue. He and I went back and forth and he began to waver a bit in his assertions about the carbon mic, so I didn't push it, being the polite Canuck that I am
Thomas Rhodes and I corresponded about this.

Here's my e mail to him...

Greetings there Tom....Have you looked at the Larry Huffman's exhuastive site which seems to tell everything about the Stokowski /Philly recordings? I was quite impressed with it and wrote and told him so. I only had a slight quibble with the identification of a couple of photographs. And this is where YOU come in, O font of wisdon. Now, it is my impression that carbon mics were never used in the western electric recording system or at least in the Victor studios. He maintains that they were and that they condenser mics didn't appear until 1927. Any ideas?

http://www.stokowski.org/1925%20Other%2 ... kowski.htm


His reply: Jim: An interesting site but apartently Larry Huffman knows jack about WE or its products. That is the condenser model 394, which was witnessed for patent by Dr. E. C. Wente on December 15, 1916! As mentioned in my VITAPHONE! article, it was improved by Dr. Irving B. Crandall in 1917 by the addition of a slotted backplate, witnessed for patent on December 17, 1917. Both the Type 387 and 394 shared that round housing, which was termed the "1C" as a later WE catalogue number. The type 387 double carbon button mike was used extensively in broadcasting but never at the Victor, Columbia or Okeh studios. Perhaps this website error deserves a short article? Tom R.


As Will Rogers used to say, all I know is what I read in the papers.

Jim

[scullylathe]

I'm also not looking for a pissing contest either, that's not my intent in any situation, but sixty years ago someone who had thoroughly researched sound recording up to the time and back then more than likely talked to people who were actually there in the 20's and did not rely on print materials or internet articles with less than reliable information, published this information:

The Recording and Reproduction of Sound, Dr. Oliver Read, 1952
Page 16 -
"The earliest forms of electrical pickups were of the carbon or magnetic types. In 1927, a new pickup was introduced which relied on the capacity effect of its elements. Both the carbon and the magnetic types of pickup, although superior to the old acoustical pickups, were far from perfect and their faults were many."

Even the photo you reference with the closeup of the microphone has the same "guts" as mine - and I know it's a carbon NOT a condenser. The earliest WE condensers looked like this:



I think that's a 9A, 8A and 394/47A (not exactly sure of the models) and here is my carbon mic and D-spec recorder with the mic showing the same internal parts as the one you reference as being a condenser, but is stamped on the internal element "Western Electric 600A" which is a carbon mic similar to the 387:



The box the mic is sitting on in your photo is not a condenser preamp (as contained in the large housings of the 8/9A's or the 47A enclosure with the 394) but contains the battery and transformer for the carbon mic.

I've done extensive research for nearly 30 years as both a hobbyist and scholar and all indications are that the very first Western Electric disk recording installations used a carbon mic. Condenser theories, patents and some prototypes yes, did exist since the teens but condensers weren't used for recording until 1927 to help remedy the issues with the carbon mics. Your friend claims the mic pictured in the housing to be a WE 394; the element is round, but the resemblance ends there and the 394 was never sold or mounted in a 1B housing.

I think if you play something like George Olsen's "Hot Aire" or "Knee Deep in Daisies" recorded in August of 1925 (and other Victors of that approximate time period) it's obviously an electric recording, but to me has a "hooty" sound to it (but not reverb), which I attribute to a carbon mic being used in a studio that is still not treated properly for electric recording and follows acoustics more appropriate for mechanical recording. Compare that with something like Ted Weems "Marvelous" from August of 1927 and to me the sound is richer, leading me to believe that the condenser was in place by then, but not in 1925. Personnel are similar in number and Victor did at times add studio musicians here and there to 'flesh out' smaller units, but the sonic difference in these two recordings and the dates seem to indicate two different mics in use.

As for my original post about the Fred Waring record, yes, played back electrically the reverb is more palatable than on an Orthophonic.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now

[transformingArt]

I'm going to cut and paste my e mails to Tom Rhodes, ,,,who is the dean of the Electrola message board.

Can you tell me the address of that Electrola Forum? Would like to see the discussions going in there.

[scullylathe]

Yes, that would be interesting.

[phonojim]

What are the titles on the Waring record that sparked this discussion? I don't seem to have that one but I do have Freshie and Hot Aire. I'll have to play Freshie to see what it sounds like, but I do know Hot Aire sounds horrible, like they had an equipment problem but released the record anyway.

Jim

[OrthoSean]

Freshie is full of echo...

Sean