The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Henry wrote:

Wolfe wrote:I think Truetone must apply to both electric and acoustic records of that short period. Listen to something like the Louis Armstrong Hot Five Heebie Jeebies )probably find it on You Tube) which is Truetone on the label and tell me that isn't an acoustic recording, and also in sound quite distinct from electrical Truetone, which I don't think were all that bad, at least compared to other early non WE electrical systems.

Agree on the Heebie. Tell-tale signs: the "boxy" sound of the piano, and the lack of percussion, which recorded poorly on acoustic (sometimes the only percussion on these early jazz acoustics is wood block). Also notable is the early, some say the first, appearance of "scat" singing on record. "Scat" means here exactly what it means to an animal; it's a more polite way of saying "sh*t." Sometimes Armstrong used scat when, as occasionally in Heebie, the lyrics escaped him!

I remember hearing or reading that he actually had a paper with the lyrics on them but dropped the paper.

Odeon wrote:The acoustic Okeh´s are of outstanding quality, in early 1926 Okeh introduced their Truetone records - of lesser sound quality.

Some articles in the net say, that Truetone was a electric recording process.
But this article of the invention by Charles Hibbard, recording engineer of Okeh says, that the truetone process could be applied to either acoustic or electric recording....

So - today, do we know more about the Truetone process? Was it electric - what was it, I wonder...

truetone.jpg

PS: I made some searches in the net, but couldn´t find any patents about Truetone, either with Charles Hibbard or General Phonograph Cop. as keywords.

Interesting note about the "blasting", but I think it lacks truth somewhat. The reason blocks were used instead of drums in the recording studio was exactly because of blasting, especially with hot jazz drummers. Supposedly the first time a drummer was allowed to bring actual drums into the OKeh studio for an electric recording was when Gene Krupa did it on the McKenzie/ Condon Chicagoans sessions of December 1927.

gramophone-georg wrote:

Odeon wrote:The acoustic Okeh´s are of outstanding quality, in early 1926 Okeh introduced their Truetone records - of lesser sound quality.

Some articles in the net say, that Truetone was a electric recording process.
But this article of the invention by Charles Hibbard, recording engineer of Okeh says, that the truetone process could be applied to either acoustic or electric recording....

So - today, do we know more about the Truetone process? Was it electric - what was it, I wonder...

truetone.jpg

PS: I made some searches in the net, but couldn´t find any patents about Truetone, either with Charles Hibbard or General Phonograph Cop. as keywords.

Interesting note about the "blasting", but I think it lacks truth somewhat. The reason blocks were used instead of drums in the recording studio was exactly because of blasting, especially with hot jazz drummers. Supposedly the first time a drummer was allowed to bring actual drums into the OKeh studio for an electric recording was when Gene Krupa did it on the McKenzie/ Condon Chicagoans sessions of December 1927.

There are several drums on record in the acoustic period, like snare drums and tom toms in marches and jigs. The limitation in the acoustic recording was not the blasting, but the cut-off frequency, that simply did not reach bass drum frequencies and severely limited the reproduction of cymbals. This is the reason why there are no acoustic records of bass viols. Wood blocks and snares could be recorded, so they were used in replacement of full sets. The blasting concern appeared in the electrical recording era when the microphones started to be used, and then such frequencies could be recorded, and loud instruments like drums had to be moved to the back of the room and the drums muffled with cloth to prevent saturation.

Somewhere in the internet I have seen a scan of photos regarding Okeh's Electric process, and they show some sort of microphone coupled to a moderate sized horn for sound pickup. I would guess the microphone was carbon.

The ODJB used drums in their Victor sessions in 1917 and Jim Europe made extensive use of drums (multiple drummers) on his 1914 Victor recordings. As CarlosV said - it's all about proper placement and muffling.

Jim

phonojim wrote:The ODJB used drums in their Victor sessions in 1917 and Jim Europe made extensive use of drums (multiple drummers) on his 1914 Victor recordings. As CarlosV said - it's all about proper placement and muffling.

Jim

Snare and tenor drums recorded well, bass drum not so. I've heard an acoustic recording of a solo bass viol, but it was of course close to the horn and played in its higher range

RE : acoustic recordings - there's a bass drum on Caruso's Over There. No, the lowest notes and impact of the drum weren't captured, but it's still recognizably what it is. Snare drums are not that uncommon - can't think offhand what the earliest I've heard might be. Orchestral cymbals are heard occasionally, or the tam-tam. What's really rare are tom toms of a any sort.

CarlosV wrote: The limitation in the acoustic recording was not the blasting, but the cut-off frequency, that simply did not reach bass drum frequencies and severely limited the reproduction of cymbals. This is the reason why there are no acoustic records of bass viols....

Tuba was usually substituted for bass viol, and they play in exactly the same frequency range, so it can't have been for the reason you state that bass viol wasn't used in acoustics. Bass singers recorded right to the bottom of their range; I have a Victor acoustic of "Asleep in the Deep," which takes the singer down to a low D (almost two octaves below middle C). Acoustic recordings of Arthur Pryor trombone solos have the low pedal notes (fundmentals) of the tenor trombone, down to low F (two-and-a-half octaves below middle C). Acoustic recordings were capable of lower frequencies than commonly assumed.

CarlosV wrote:

gramophone-georg wrote:

Odeon wrote:The acoustic Okeh´s are of outstanding quality, in early 1926 Okeh introduced their Truetone records - of lesser sound quality.

Some articles in the net say, that Truetone was a electric recording process.
But this article of the invention by Charles Hibbard, recording engineer of Okeh says, that the truetone process could be applied to either acoustic or electric recording....

So - today, do we know more about the Truetone process? Was it electric - what was it, I wonder...

truetone.jpg

PS: I made some searches in the net, but couldn´t find any patents about Truetone, either with Charles Hibbard or General Phonograph Cop. as keywords.

Interesting note about the "blasting", but I think it lacks truth somewhat. The reason blocks were used instead of drums in the recording studio was exactly because of blasting, especially with hot jazz drummers. Supposedly the first time a drummer was allowed to bring actual drums into the OKeh studio for an electric recording was when Gene Krupa did it on the McKenzie/ Condon Chicagoans sessions of December 1927.

There are several drums on record in the acoustic period, like snare drums and tom toms in marches and jigs. The limitation in the acoustic recording was not the blasting, but the cut-off frequency, that simply did not reach bass drum frequencies and severely limited the reproduction of cymbals. This is the reason why there are no acoustic records of bass viols. Wood blocks and snares could be recorded, so they were used in replacement of full sets. The blasting concern appeared in the electrical recording era when the microphones started to be used, and then such frequencies could be recorded, and loud instruments like drums had to be moved to the back of the room and the drums muffled with cloth to prevent saturation.

The Kurpa story is a myth. Bass drums appear quite early, although they were usually enough trouble so that the recordist would insist upon their being left out. On the other hand, Brunswick made quite a point of leaving the bass drum in place in their recording sessions,maven quite early on. Those purple label Isham Jones sides from,1920 and 1921 have a bass drum energetically booming away. Same thing with the Lyman, Oriole, and Fenton sides.

^ I don't think I've heard any Brunswick dance band record from the early 1920's with a bass drum booming away. Interesting.

Could you post one ? Like from YouTube?