The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I knew a Allen Jolson in the LA area. We called him "Al" and he was in plumbing & heating...... !!!!. However, if it had "Asa Yoelson" on it......Well, then maybe..... .

This phonograph came from a very well known phonograph collector who was selling it for the widow of a man very well known in the phonograph field.

Sorry to say, but this doesn't prove that Al Jolsen once owned this machine, and nor does an engraved plaque with his name engraved on it.
What you need is provenance-

From Wikipedia


In most fields, the primary purpose of provenance is to confirm or gather evidence as to the time, place, and—when appropriate—the person responsible for the creation, production, or discovery of the object. This will typically be accomplished by tracing the whole history of the object up to the present. Comparative techniques, expert opinions, and the results of scientific tests may also be used to these ends, but establishing provenance is essentially a matter of documentation.

In other words, what you need is proof that Jolsen actually owned this machine. For an item such as this, I would think a signed document by a relative of Jolsens, verifying that VV-2-65, serial number xxxxx was owned by their Uncle, Grandfather or whatever, and was a gift or came from his estate etc, would carry some weight as provenance, or perhaps even a photograph that showed Jolsen with the machine, and the plaques position on the case was visible, might also serve as enough proof for some people, but the presence of an engraved metal plaque with nothing more than a name, really cant be considered provenance, simply because it could have been put there by anyone at anytime, and there is no verifiable connection to Jolsen himself.
Had the plaque stated that the machine was a presentation piece to Jolsen for record sales or something similar, and documentation such as newspaper article could be found that backed up what was on the plaque could be found, then that could even be considered provenance, but without some sort of eveidence, I'm afraid you've got nothing.

Now I'm not saying that this did not belong to Jolsen, or that the plaque is a fake, but when you think about it, there would be nothing stopping me from getting a plaque engraved with Bing Crosby's name on it & attaching to a gramophone or radio etc, and claiming it once belonged to him.
Being a collector of antiques in general, I've come across items like hair brushes that have hallmarked sterling silver plaques that were never engraved, so I could easily have it engraved, and the presence of the hallmarks would even be proof that the plaque was made in a particular year, but what I wouldn't have is proof that I didn't have it engraved yesterday, and I would expect anyone interested in purchasing the item I attached the plaque to, to want to see proof that I didn't, if they they were going to hand over thousands of dollars for that item.

Mike McKelvy wrote:Everyone, I came here because we all have a mutual interest in phonographs and we can all help and learn from each other. However when being directed to the other link edison64 directed me to I was very upset by the way they seemed to make a fool of me. Yes I had this machine on Ebay, and unfortunately I just did not have a camera that could take a closeup of the plaque. As you can see I have now a clear photo of it. This phonograph came from a very well known phonograph collector who was selling it for the widow of a man very well known in the phonograph field. I will call my friend to see if he can post here to clarify things, but please do not put me down. Also I was made fun of for saying it is time to let things go. I have not been well and am off very bad financially. No matter how advanced you are in your collections, you can always learn new things from other people.....Mike

First off, I'm sorry you're in ill health. As for being "very bad-off financially," I think everyone's going through some tough times... I know I am. I hope things get better for you, and I mean that sincerely.

Now for the tough stuff. I'm going to say this as nicely as I can... and I don't mean this in a bad way, it's just the truth:

From the standpoint of a prospective buyer, it's a portable 1930 - 1933 Victor 2-65 bought from some guy at a C.A.P.S. show with a nameplate that says "Al Jolson." There's absolutely no documentation that Al ever owned this, touched it, or even came near it. Sure, the nameplate looks old... but that plate could have been put on the machine from the time it was new to whenever you bought it. Heck, someone could have attached that plate the day after Jolie died in 1950. Also, the gramophone isn't in great condition. I'd figure that machine to be $200.00 in top condition, and you're asking $3,500 with nothing more than good faith and your word that it was owned by "The World's Greatest Entertainer?" Surely you have to see where I'm coming from. There are very few people alive, if any, who would drop $3,500 for the privilege of saying "I own Al Jolson's Victrola!" After all, that's all they'd be able to do... and they wouldn't even be able to provide any evidence to back it up.

According to your original eBay ad:
"I bought this phonograph about five years ago at the California Antique Phonograph Show. It was sold to me by my friend who was selling it for the wife of a deceased phonograph collector."
Including yourself, that's four people whose hands this has passed through over who knows how many years. NOT including you, there's three people right there who could have fabricated a story about Jolson actually owning this machine. That's a red flag for a prospective buyer right there. Red flag #2 would be that Jolson was recording for Brunswick during the time he would have owned this. Being one of Brunswick's biggest stars, you'd think they'd be giving him free machines for his use. Red flag #3, for me anyway, is why the name plate is on the inside. If Jolson had this attached to the machine, why would he have put it on the inside? If he was traveling with it, don't you think he'd want the plate on the outside to identify it as his? That's three strikes against dropping three grand on this machine right there.

Simply put: If you're going to ask premium prices for something, you must provide rock-solid documentation to justify that price. As for having the guy you bought it from post here... what good does that do? All he'd be able to do is reiterate the story he told you to get you to buy it in the first place. If he had any documentation that it belonged to Jolson, he would have given it to you when you bought the gramophone, I would think.

Here's a link to the Victor 2-65 on the Victor-Victrola website for quick reference:
http://www.victor-victrola.com/2-65.htm

JohnM wrote:

dennman6 wrote:

JohnM wrote:Interesting that Jolson never recorded for Victor, yet owned a Victrola..

Actually, Jolie DID record for Victor-his earliest records, in fact. I'm thinking of "That Lovin' Traumerei", for one,from 1912. Victor 17119-B. There are more, but titles escape me at the moment. However, that Victor portable is from the mid to late 1920s, long after Jolson had recorded for Victor & had passed through the Columbia & Brunswick studios as well.

One learns something new every day! I did not know that. I have never seen a Jolson Victor. Black 'Patents' label?

Jolson recorded for (in order): Victor, Columbia (Little Wonder was manufactured by Columbia... thus the "Carolina" Little Wonder #20,) Brunswick, and finally, Decca.
Here's a pic of a Jolson Victor label from 1912:


Just for fun, here's a pic of a birthday present I received last year:

(To quell discussion of the photo: That was bought off eBay for the staggering sum of $9.99. Do I know the signature is real? Nope... but it's the thought that counts, and it's probably the most thoughtful gift I've ever received. The guy and gal that gave me this really knew me well! You don't come across friends like that every day. On top of that, for Christmas, they gave me a copy of the famous "Bing Blow-Up!")

Totally agree 1926.
I sure hope Mike didn't pay the kind of money he's asking for this machine

we all have to wach what we buy at time's even myself I have paid to much for machine's.

This is one Nice Phonograph , I just stripped a portable for parts because the motor is junk & its just a junker that I paid to much for The after it is cranked up the unit slows down after it starts to play I think the spring is shot.


On the other hand The tag is awesome and the phonograph is wicked coolBy My standards. I love it.

This phonograph came from a very well known phonograph collector who was selling it for the widow of a man very well known in the phonograph field.

I am sure he will do very will with it. I myself am on a strict income sold off a few machines and may have to sell off more in the future.

gramophoneshane wrote:I sure hope Mike didn't pay the kind of money he's asking for this machine

I do as well....
Now I'm curious how much he paid for it to be asking $3,500.

gramophone78 wrote:I knew a Allen Jolson in the LA area. We called him "Al" and he was in plumbing & heating...... !!!!. However, if it had "Asa Yoelson" on it......Well, then maybe..... .

I know an Owl Jolson

Retrograde wrote:I know an Owl Jolson

... he likes to sing-a!

Google is an amazing thing...
Some things aren't clicking here. Appearantly, the story changes a little bit here and there:

Now he can trace this thing back to a member of Jolson's family?
http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtop ... 1&t=166645

"Dear pixellany,

I can assure you the Phonograph was owned by Al Jolson. My friend who is
well known in the phonograph world was selling it for a gentleman who was a
collector of celebrity owned items, and he acquired it from a family member
originally.....Mike

-bluesell55"

If so, why hasn't he bothered to mention this again?

Then, there's this:
http://www.thecollectibleking.com/calif ... 97338.html
According to some other search results, he's tried to sell it at a few yard sales as well. I wondered why he had labeled the second photo "Yard Sale 029."


So Mike, which member of Jolson's family did this come from?
And, uh... a person who spends $139.00 on a shirt on eBay doesn't strike me as somebody who needs to be complaining about being "off very bad financially."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320756040896

Things just aren't adding up here. I'm calling BS on this whole situation.

I don't know why you people keep insulting me? Once again I thought we are here to learn and help each other. I finally spoke to Richard Messick, my friend who originally sold me the machine several years ago. I highly resent the person who said he unloaded it on me. Richard has been well known in the phonograph world close to forty years. He once again reiterated the story of where my phonograph came from. He did not recieve one cent on it's sale. A man by the name of Pin Linson had Richard sell it for him. Pin Linson was selling it for the widow of Lynn Dowdy, who was a well known collector of phonographs and celebrity items. Lynn bought this originally from an auction, where this machine was consigned by a family member. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!!! Once again I highly resent the insults not only towards me, but my friend as well. credenza26 what the heck does me buying a shirt have anything to do with this subject? I collect phonographs, movie memorabilia, and vintage clothing among other antiques. I am always buying and re-selling on Ebay, Craigslist, and my frequent yard sales. The shirt was a very hard to find shirt originally selling for around $500.00. My friend who sells at the clothing show in Santa Monica got me $370.00 for it. Also what is the big deal about me naming my photo file "yardsale29?????. While my yard sales are going on I take photos of things that I put on Ebay. Why do you care what I name the file????? So my friend, things ARE VERY hard on me financially and healthwise and I do what I can to survive. On the other hand those of you who sent me the kind messages, I greatly appreciate it.....Mike