The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

VintageTechnologies wrote:Nice machine! I'll join the chorus to warn against playing Edisons on anything but an Edison. Sure, a number of phonograph brands (such as Brunswick) were marketed to play the Edison disks, but I am totally convinced that they will wear out an Edison disk faster than an Edison player. If you had the correct diamond needle, you could "sacrifice" one Edison disk to demo the Sonora, but I would not play the others on it. If you had a Pathé sapphire stylus, then you could play the Pathé vertical-cut records without harm.

I've got to say I'm not convinced. Lets first assume that the Sonora (or Brunswick, or what ever) has a proper jeweled point in fine condition. I don't think the arm puts more weight on the disc than the Edison reproducer which has a VERY heavy weight on it- I'd like to see a comparison between the down bearing mass of the Edison weight and the movable part of the arm and soundbox in a Sonora, or Cheney (or what ever)

As to the talking point that the Edison feed screw carried the point across the disc, that is not accurate. It carries the upper body of the reproducer across the record. There is a slop factor of a good 1/8th of an inch to the right and left to accommodate slight irregularities in the disc- so the diamond point and the heavy weight are carried by the groove...with maybe a slight assist by the spring connection at the back of the weight. I'll admit that the arm of most other machines can have considerable friction which may contribute to wear- but with adjustment and maintenance these can be reduced to a minimum.

Edison disc machines are fine mechanisms, but I think they were designed more to be in compliance with Edison's mechanical patents than for any other reason. If he'd made them with a free floating arm that would have been admitting his competition was right.

Hi John:
Thanks for the 'semantics' I edited my previous post and took out the word needle and replaced with stylus. Well, I put in Stylus # 3 and give a listen to the Edison record. Ha. Just got my Christmas Present Early... Really glad to know that I have the proper stylus with which to play the record.
Thanks again everyone and A Merry Christmas To All
Harry

JohnM wrote:Congratulations! Jackpot! Stylus #2, Pathé or other 'hill-and-dale' format. Stylus #3, Edison. The shank is metal. Not sure what #1 is, but it looks like one of those 'wear-ever' type for 78's -- if so, it's a record destroyer. Don't use it! 'Hill-and-dale' records have a vertically-modulated U-shaped groove. Edison 'Diamond Discs' have a vertically-modulated V-shaped groove, thus the difference in stylus geometry.

Although this is semantics, the term 'needle' implies a disposable, or resharpenable (but ultimately disposable) point, i.e., a steel needle, a bamboo needle, a cactus-thorn needle, a whale ivory needle, a tungsten-tip needle, etc. The term 'stylus' implies a permanent, jeweled tip. A stylus may be 'permanently' (requiring disassembly of the reproducer to remove) mounted like in an Edison Disc Phonograph; or mounted to a shank like your styli.

I think that Stylus 1 with the brass shank is the Edison stylus- it's not unlike the one which came with my Cheney.

Hi Estott:
Thanks for the information. I'll give Stylus #1 and Stylus #3 a shot and let you know what I find out.
Harry

ayrhead wrote:Hi Estott:
Thanks for the information. I'll give Stylus #1 and Stylus #3 a shot and let you know what I find out.
Harry

In a typical pile of Edison Discs there should be a couple with fairly dull content.

It would be a good thing to check the points under magnification to make certain they're not chipped or badly worn. If the grooves start getting a brownish color or you hear a pronounced echo (like two adjacent grooves playing at once) stop the experiment at once.

Could be #1 and #3 are both Edison. Does the tip of #1 look chipped, or is that just me?

Hi Again Everyone:
I took a look at Stylus 1 and 3 under the magnifying glass. Both Styli look fine without any chips. Stylus #1 seemed to be a little heavier but still played the record fine. Stylus #3 seemed to be the better choice of the two. Just my opinion. Another question. Is it better to leave the Sonora with spring tension or let it wind out or down. I don't plan on playing records often and don't know which is the better way after playing a record. Leave the spring tension on or let it wind down to no tension. Also,is it possible to over wind the unit? I usually only put 10 to 15 cranks on the machine. I read the Instruction Manual that was in a previous post and it says to wind it up till you feel resistance. However, because of the age of the machine I didn't want to put any undo pressures on the unit.
Looking forward to a response.
Harry

I always let my machines wind down, especially if they will sit for long periods unplayed.

Yes, you can overwind the spring. It is possible to fully wind the spring, at which point you will feel resistance in the crank when it hits the "end". Past that, it's overwound and thus, broken. However, there is NO need to ever wind the spring to the end. Remember, it's old. Wind it only as much as is needed to play a single record all the way through.

The whole "let it wind down/leave some tension" debate has been around for a while. I usually just leave a little bit of tension on the motor. As for how many turns, it depends on the motor. My Champion has a two spring motor that's cranked with a worm drive, so it takes a large number of turns to get it up all the way. I usually crank it halfway, which is around 20 turns. Always wind in moderation, and just experiment until you find a number that works. If 10-15 works for you, then that's a good number.

Since the steel main-springs have a crystalline molecular structure, it is best to just let the motor run down naturally when it is at rest. This prevents the springs from developing a 'memory' of being coiled-up all the time and minimizes the potential for a spring to break when exceeding that rest position. Also, if the springs have been freshly greased, winding the mainspring drives grease to the outside of the barrel, and allowing it to uncoil drives the grease back toward the center. This allows the coils of the spring to slide past one another smoothly and effortlessly preventing spring 'chugging' which can also lead to spring breakage. There is a physical limit to how many times the crank can be turned to wind the springs fully. Pushing further than that can damage the winding gears, but common sense will tell you to stop at the limit. There is really no need to wind a spring fully, anyway. Every time you turn the crank, the effort required to turn the crank will increase slightly. Just wind until it feels right. It isn't rocket surgery