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IIRC, Edison needle cut discs play at 78.8 rpm

Marco Gilardetti wrote: Anyone recall any other REFERENCED (not one's ear's preference, thank you) speed which is worth adding?

Nothing below 76 rpm?

Berliner discs are established to play at about 70 rpm.

Thanks for the note, added to the list.

They say early recordings were made also as low as 60 rpm. Is there any important brand that used these low speeds consistently or is it just some rare early oddity?

Marco Gilardetti wrote:
They say early recordings were made also as low as 60 rpm. Is there any important brand that used these low speeds consistently or is it just some rare early oddity?

The short lived Victor 14 inch records are purported to play at 60 rpm or so. I've never owned one, and in any case they would fall under 'rare early oddity.' I personally know of no other brand that used speeds that low.

The early Gramophone Co. discs could be in the upper 60's rpm, though. Like 69 rpm.

Marco Gilardetti wrote:Okay, so the list so far is as follows:

70 (Berliner)
76 (HMV)
78 (mechanical standard speed)
78,26 (electric standard speed)
80 (HMV, Columbia, Edison, Pathé)
81 (HMV 1924 and around)
90 (European Pathé, lower)
100 (European Pathé, upper)
120 (European Pathé, max.)

Anyone recall any other REFERENCED (not one's ear's preference, thank you) speed which is worth adding?

Nothing below 76 rpm?

Actually, it's much more of a mixed bag in my experience. Take for instance Victor. From 1928 onwards 78.26 rpm is the correct speed in most cases, early electric Victors up to 1926 usually have a speed between 75.5 and 76.5 rpm, and Victors from 1927 vary between 76.5 and 78.26.

With HMV there seems to be a little more consistency. Most electric HMV's should be played around 78.26 rpm, unless of course it's an HMV reissue of a Victor master, in that case the same guidelines I gave for Victor apply.

On early electric British Columbia records it usually says "80 rpm". But in my experience, this usually is too fast. In reality they vary between 77 and 79 rpm. Especially when it's a British reissue of an American (Viva-Tonal) Columbia.

Wolfe wrote:The short lived Victor 14 inch records are purported to play at 60 rpm or so. I've never owned one, and in any case they would fall under 'rare early oddity.' I personally know of no other brand that used speeds that low.

Thanks for the note. I also suspect that only few dozens of those records may survive today, but it's worth adding for historical reasons and also because a precise, specific speed was recommended by the maker.

So we end up with the final (I suppose) list:

60 (Victor 14'')
70 (Berliner)
76 (HMV)
78 (mechanical standard speed)
78,26 (electric standard speed)
80 (HMV, Columbia, Edison, Pathé)
81 (HMV 1924 and around)
90 (European Pathé, lower)
100 (European Pathé, upper)
120 (European Pathé, max.)

Marco Gilardetti wrote:

Wolfe wrote:The short lived Victor 14 inch records are purported to play at 60 rpm or so. I've never owned one, and in any case they would fall under 'rare early oddity.' I personally know of no other brand that used speeds that low.

Thanks for the note. I also suspect that only few dozens of those records may survive today, but it's worth adding for historical reasons and also because a precise, specific speed was recommended by the maker.

So we end up with the final (I suppose) list:

60 (Victor 14'')
70 (Berliner)
76 (HMV)
78 (mechanical standard speed)
78,26 (electric standard speed)
80 (HMV, Columbia, Edison, Pathé)
81 (HMV 1924 and around)
90 (European Pathé, lower)
100 (European Pathé, upper)
120 (European Pathé, max.)

Actually, a lot of HMV records should be played at 78.26 rpm! My HMV 1929 catalogue states:

"Unless otherwise indicated, "His Master's Voice" records should be played at 78 rpm revolutions per minute. In case of records of older manufacture, some of which are included, the speed is indicated "above 78" or "below 78" and the playing speed should be adjusted accordingly."

In other words, HMV records play below, at, or above, 78 rpm. Really a mixed bag, as I already said

bart1927 wrote:
In other words, HMV records play below, at, or above, 78 rpm. Really a mixed bag, as I already said

Yes. You can find HMV records recorded in the 1940's that don't play at 78. The cutter was just running at a different speed, either by design or happenstance.

Even the Enrico Caruso electrical orchestral remakes / dubbings (issued on HMV) of the early 1930's, a time when one might expect a more or less standard 78.26, sees the proper playing speed (according to William R. Moran) to range from 72.72 to 81.00 rpm to be at the proper pitch.

And the speeds of the dubbings don't necessarily correspond with the speeds of the records from which they were dubbed. Caruso's Hosanna for instance has a playing speed of 76.00 on the original, but wound up with a speed of 81.00 on the dubbing. So, assuming they played the original record at the proper speed in the studio. The cutting lathe making the new master was running at 81.00.

Henry wrote:If my ear suspects a problem at 78, I adjust until the piece is in the known key; whatever rpm that is, is of only passing interest to me. If I don't know the key, I adjust up or down to the nearest most likely key. For example, very few pieces are in "remote" keys like Ab minor (key of seven flats), so I'd adjust up to A minor (faster) or down to G minor (slower), which are both very common keys.... For a lot of people, none of this matters a whole lot, I suspect, but since I'm a musician "I just gotta do it."

Henry, I want to endorse your statement here, even though three years have passed. Like you, I'm a musician, and therefore pitch matters a great deal to me. Lately I've been using my hand-held tachometer to get as close to the proper recorded speed as possible, but when dealing with dubbed records (such as Blue Amberol cylinders) one has to add in another level of checking by synching with the original discs (IF one has copies of those).

So, I appreciate your suggestion that one adjust to the nearest "most likely key" that comes closest to the best-determined RPM. Luckily my cylinder phonograph sits on top of a piano, so I can make that test as well.

Why do we bother? Well, again, if you're a musician you want the actual key. As a historian, you want authenticity--and the right keys show off your machines and records to best advantage. They decrease the distance between our supposed contemporary technological superiority--and the genius demonstrated a century ago in capturing MUSIC (a core language of empathy) by less-perfect means.

Ralph