The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Starkton wrote:

edisonphonoworks wrote:The brown wax blanks range from cream to vary dark, but are exactly the same amounts of components weighed within .01 gram. The color has to do with how long they are cooked and if they are cooked in cast iron, aluminum, or stainless steel.

This is an important observation and matches with my autopsy of cylinders of 1889. It is not possible to base a chronology on the colour alone.

Absolutely not. Take this group for instance:

Foreground: Ca. 1893 Columbia cylinder with title slip attached to record surface.

Middle(L): 1889 Edison cylinder with string core.
Middle(R): 1890-95 Edison "channel-rim" cylinder.

Back Row(L): 1899-1903 Columbia five-inch cylinder with title slip "Charlatan March."
Back Row(R): Another 1899-1903 five inch cylinder; unannounced and with no slip.

As can be seen in this case, the oldest cylinder is the darkest and the lightest-colored of the group are the latest! With the possible exception of the 1888 Edison cylinders (which are creamy white), color is no determinant of age.

George P.

phonogfp wrote: Foreground: Ca. 1893 Columbia cylinder with title slip attached to record surface.
Middle(L): 1889 Edison cylinder with string core.
Middle(R): 1890-95 Edison "channel-rim" cylinder.

This is an exciting group! What is recorded on the oldest cylinders?

Absolutely not what? That they don't vary in color from batch to batch? It is true that you are not able to really tell age by color. But they do change during a batch cooking, different brands of stearic brown differently, and my photo shows the variations in shades, all except the 1888 yellow paraffin ones, which are cream yellow, and the black four minute blank, which of course is black.

The brown ones are all different shades of brown, however; yes, certain years and certain brands are close in color with a peculiar hue and shade. Yes early aluminated Edison cylinders tend to be darker, those made from 1889-1896 will be dark because the formulation used acetate of aluminum powder, and the acetate had to be boiled off, so these tend to be dark, or a reddish brown, they were cooked up to over 540 degrees on the bottom of the kettle, the top reading around 450 degrees and about 900 lbs or more of compound made at a time. Previous to 1896 the Edison formulation contained aluminum stearate derived from acetate of alumina, stearic acid, and ceresine. Post 1896 Edison cylinders,hydrated aluminum was used without acetate, and sodium carbonate added to the formula, and moisture proofed with ceresine. The later formula did not require any acetic acid to be boiled off resulting in more variety from a light brown to a dark brown in color, depending on how long the wax wax cooked. Edison wax was always double heated, that is the compound was made, and poured into forms, stacked in slabs and shipped to the Edison Phonograph Works to be molded into blanks at a later time. Original cylinders were actually a little lighter when new, or more of a salmon color, the wax contains ferric stearate as an impurity, and oxidizes with age causing them to have a more orange or red hue. Most of this change happened over 80 years ago, so we are not able to see it today as it has gone through the whole of the thickness, but when examined around 1901 or so the outside layer of the cylinders were darker than the interior.

Columbia cylinders, as the concerts in George's photograph,. Columbia used Edison blanks until late 1894, and then experiments were conducted for about a year by John C English, Mr. Storms, and Thomas Hood Macdonald. mostly without a good result. A Melzer developed the Columbia formula for blank cylinders, and Columbia started to produced in quantity the Melzer formulation about August of 1895. Columbia cylinders previous to 1901 tend to be lighter than Edison blanks, the formula is very different than Edison. Melzer formula No. 409 used for Columbia Records is stearic acid, cocinic acid (coconut oil) Hydrate of Alumina and Caustic Lye. At times the Cocinic acid was replaced with paraffin or ceresine. The formula for Columbia was not cooked above 350 degrees, as it does not contain sodium carbonate or acetate of alumina which makes it necessary for the formula to be cooked at a much higher temperature. In fact the fist two years I produced cylinders, without any knowledge of it, they were made much the same as the Melzer formula, and were a bright white to light brown for the most part. If a home recording is on blanks, I can tell what kind of blank it is by observing the following. Edison blanks have a double start spiral in the center of the records, and Columbia has a single spiral. Columbia blanks tend to be lighter than Edison blanks. Edison blanks, usually the left end is cut with a very small taper, while Columbia has more of a longer cove at the thin, left end. All of this results in thousands of hours of hands on experience, actually making waxes, metallic soaps and records, and these observations are not guess work or interjections but based on observable facts. If you have any doubts any of you are invited to make an appointment and may visit me, and we will produce any historical formula you would like to see made. The only formula I do not know how to make is Amberol wax, I have not found documentation on this formula yet. I do have a lot of the wax around though to melt lol.

If I may, I believe the "absolutely not" comment was not directed at you "edisonphonoworks".

It was a reply to "phonogfp" and when read in the proper context is as follows,

"It is not possible to base a chronology on the colour alone.


Absolutely not. Take this group for instance:.."

Any comment on my "moldy" questions?

Absolutely right!

JerryVan is correct in that I was responding to Starkton's belief that it is not possible to establish a cylinder's age solely on color. Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

Starkton, to answer your question about the group of cylinders:

The cylinder in front is a Washington DC Columbia, "It's One Too Many For Me" by Edward Clarence.

The 1889 Edison with the string core contains piano music recorded faintly and at slow speed. When Richard and Megan of Archeophone were here over a year ago, they tried to record it, but the inner core it too tight to fit on a regular mandrel. We tried to use a BF Graphophone (6" mandrel) to provide motive power, but then their pickup equipment couldn't reach the record's surface. Time was running short, so we decided to try it again at some later date.

The channel-rim cylinder is the prettiest one of the 7 I have here. It's a very loud and clear home recording voice-dated May 4, 1894.

Best to all,
George P.

George those are super awesome cylinders by the way! I wonder if the Washington DC Columbia cylinder is on an Edison or Melzer blank, it looks like the Edison color. As far as do new blanks become moldy in the right conditions? The answer is yes, both brands of new phonogram blanks can become moldy. I had put new cylinders in a dark, damp, dirt floor root celler. Although the white ones I made in 2000, did not become moldy as the 2001 experimental formula did, but I think this one was one of the experimental blanks that was a sodium stearate and had small amounts of lead, and no tempering agent this was badly moldy.

edisonphonoworks wrote:George those are super awesome cylinders by the way! I wonder if the Washington DC Columbia cylinder is on an Edison or Melzer blank, it looks like the Edison color.

Thanks Shawn.

I doubt that the Washington DC cylinder is on an Adolph Melzer blank, since Melzer didn't offer his services to Macdonald until September 1894, and didn't visit Macdonald's molding facility until July 1895 (where he found working conditions to have been "rather primitive"). I doubt that Melzer's formula found its way into Columbia's commercial products until the fall of 1895 at the earliest. (Macdonald didn't file his patent embodying Melzer's formula until late 1896!)

George P.

George, Exactly! I wrote an article on Columbia Blanks for "In The Groove" although I am not sure it was published. I found court cases have lots of good information regarding these developments. On the concets, inside you can see a slight discoloration, a reddish color, I wonder if this is the castor oil used for a mold release combining with the surface of the soap mass?

edisonphonoworks wrote:George, Exactly! I wonder if this is the castor oil used for a mold release combining with the surface of the soap mass?

I'll taste it and report back...

George P.

LOL, I am sure it is all evaporated and worn off the surface by now, except for what is compounded on the molecular level of the mass. I wouldn't chance it, the toxic byproduct (ricin) is in castor oil. But that is what was used as the mold release back then. Making cylinders is very unhealthy even now. Aluminum vapors are bad for you, the other ingredients vaporize into the air, and makes white cobwebs appear, everywhere, and if you make the pre 1896 Edison formula, you have a strong vinegar odor. To make good wax, it almost catches on fire, and if you get one small drop on your skin, it will give you very bad burns, I was down for 6 months because I fried my hand with cylinder wax, it went on my hand and then burst into flames, I still have a bad scar from it. I wrote three articles ; one was on how I make blanks, another on Edison Blanks, and the last on Columbia wax for In The Groove I still have some more on the subject to write. I probably hurt my self by publishing, as it allows anyone with a devil-may-care attitude about themselves to have a base to start, and some have made blanks off my instructions. and did a passable job. Although I now have an even better formula that I am not going to publish, although the other ones were certainly good enough for the novice soap chemist and green horn. I more focus on blanks than recordings, although maybe someday I will be able to build the recorder in my mind using better designs and materials. .