victor vv-90 winding and play time question

[Sansenoi]

OK, here's what I've done thismorning so far,

I fixed the speed needle to correctly indicate 78 rpm with the adjustment knob half way in/out.

From fully wound with the disk platter on but the needle not on the disk, it will run for 4 minutes with the speed indicator at 78 rpm, at 5:30 minutes the indicator is at one tick slower. At 9 minutes it is at 2 ticks slower and at 12 minutes it is at the third and final slow tick coming to a halt at 15 minutes.

Perhaps this might give someone an idea if this is a sign of weak springs or if they are ok and the problem is just me with a bad needle and record.

Perhaps the reason I got all of those free records with the victrola is that none of them will play on it.

If the springs are ok, I'll leave the player be until I can get new needles and a known correct record.

The 78 records I have have red, blue and green labels. I'm sure the green ones aren't ok because they say vina-tone if I recall correctly.
Thanks for all of your information and advice.

[gramophoneshane]

It sounds like a governor problem to me. Even with a slightly shortened spring, that motor shouldn't start to slow down 5.5 mins after a full wind with no record being played.
I'm guessing that either there's too much end play in the governor bearings, or the worm gear of the governor isn't meshing with the spindle gear quite right.
When you pulled down the motor, did you remove both of the brass bearing bushes?
It's usually a good idea to leave one of these bushes untouched & in it's original position as it makes things a lot easier when you reposition the governor.
Also, if you undid the spindle gear & removed the spindle, you may not have the gear in it's optimal position to mesh with the worm gear. There is also a small ball bearing at the base of the spindle which can sometimes fall out un-noticed while cleaning, and if that ball bearing is missing, more friction is created & will cause the motor to slow down prematurely.
These motors were designed to easily play 2 x 12" records, so without playing a record, it should take 10-12 minutes for a fully wound motor to show signs of slowing down on the speed indicator, provided everything is properly adjusted & lubricated, & there's no damage to the gears or bearings.

[Sansenoi]

I just removed the spring barrel and fixed the broken springs. I did not remove anything but the governor, after which it ran better because it had too much play in it. The bottom retaining pin (ungrooved one) that holds the governor in place was sticking out 3 or 4 millimeters originally with a lot of play in the governor.

One things is that ever since I got it to crank up, there is some "on and off" friction noises every couple of minutes in sinc with the spindle but not it's gears. IT sounds like it is coming from where the spindle meets the governor but I can't figure out where it's coming from. I thought it was the gear but the sound doesn't come from the same spot on the teeth when rotating. It sounds like it may be from where the spindle leaves the motor body up through the motor board. Could there be rust or something in there? Perhaps, like you said, I just need to adjust how the gears mesh.

I haven't taken it apart, maybe I should. Is there some kind of bearing or guide plate where the spindle leaves the metal motor body on its way to the topside of the motor board?

[Sansenoi]

just an update, I took the whole motor apart and cleaned. There was a lot of gummed up, dried grease on both worm gears. Used gasoline to get it out.

The motor runs better now but still comes to a slow stop when played, especially when started at the outside of the record instead of mid way through. At first I thought the arm might be tone arm might not be moving smoothly but it is moving smoothly.

As far as grabbing the spindle and slowing it,,,, I can grab it and moderately squeeze and bring it to a stop.

The governor spins freely with no chatter and its springs and weights look like new metal after cleaning. The pad disk slides on its arbor with no friction from any hidden grunge.
The occasional friction sound I could not identify is now gone.

The motor runs almost with no sound at all.

The governor pads are black and hard but not worn to a nub, feels like wood not leather even after oiling, could this be a problem? One could imagine if this victrola was played enough to wear down the springs tha the pads would be worn to anub wouldn't they?

The motor will not start from a stop if the pads are left to press in their entire spring load upon the governor pad disk. I have to adjust the fast/slow screw a little bit to take the tension off the pad disk on the governor.

[Sansenoi]

need to clarify something, motor will not start from stop if fully wound down if pads are left to sit on governor with full force of the springs. I have to crank it for a while to get it to start.

Also, after recalibrating the speed indicator, it still only runs about 7 minutes at 78 rpm without losing speed (without the needle on the record).

[Sansenoi]

I think I found the problem. The governor speed pads. They are hard and rough/grainy like stone even after oiling twice. Perhaps someone oiled it with something along the lines of what I found packed hard in the worm gears (black and gritty just like the pads) it even looked like grit was starting to etch a circular groove in the brass governor plate.

After letting new oil soak in for several hours, I walked back over and cranked it up and it will play a whole record at 78 rpm but not a whole two sides of a record; this is even with the Chet Atkins red label record and an old needle. I'm pretty sure the record is not the type needed for this victrola.

If this is the wrong section of the forum to post this topic any further I can move it over to the technical section.

Any advice on how to recondition or make new governor pads?

Thank for all of you folks kind advice.

[David Spanovich]

Any advice on how to recondition or make new governor pads?

There are some good tips here --

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=4196

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I posted another response, earlier, but it was somehow toasted when I attempted to edit it. It literally vanished, but my name was still listed as the last poster on this thread on the forum's main page.

In any event, I wanted to add (or harp) about the importance of also restoring the sound box once you have all of the motor work done to your satisfaction.

When new, the #2 sound box gaskets were extremely soft, allowing most of the diaphragm to move back and forth as needle & the needle bar tracked the (lateral) movement of the record's groove. Over time, they petrify until they become rock hard. This means that only the very center of the diaphragm will move, and the needle and needle bar suffers undue resistance. The result is poor tracking, excess wear to the record groove, and a shrill, squeaky tone.

There are a number of youtube videos that show the restoration process, and of course, people here will also offer help and advice when you are ready to tackle the job.

DS

[Sansenoi]

I was wondering about the mystery post showing myself, it popped up as if you'd replied around the same time I got a server error for quite some time for this forum. It said "maximum users online of 1203" or something like that on the error page.

I was wanting to rebuild the soundbox after I figured out the speed(or lack thereof) problem. My reproducer has good mica in it and the box looks good all around except for the gaskets. It plays loud "as is" but you are right to rebuild to reduce unintended strain which didn't even cross my mind. I was just happy to get one in working condition. Seen som pretty banged up ones on the net.

Thanks for the link on that issue also.

[Sansenoi]

Ok, final update on the progress.

Thanks to all of you who gave suggestions and links.
Thank last link about making pads was what I needed.

I took an old leather belt, sanded it down thin and rough and rolled it to the diameter of the old pad and roughly the length I thought it should be from looking at the old pad.
I then put a drop og super glue on the end going to the metal pad arm and a dab along its side where it rolled together. I did not put glue on the pad and roll it up because as the pad wore I'd just be rubbing hard glue onto the brass governor plate.

I then took a razor blade and cut the old pad even with the metal pad arm (since it was hard and brittle it broke off while trying to remove it with a section still in the arm pincers) I then put another dab of superglue on the new pad end going to the old pad piece and placed it in place with some needle nose pliers and let the glue set.

I then sprayed the new pad end with some silicone gun oil ( doused it pretty good twice) and viola!!! My first gramophone, a victor VV 90 I bought for $150 came alive!! IT now works. I listened to two sides of my wrong type record with an old needle and it powered through perfectly at 78 RPM. I did not bother with the speed indicator pad.

After I got the old pad out and inspected it closely it looks as if someone indeed did not oil it but put motor grease on it which later collected grit and solidified hard as a rock.

I was able, although foolishly, to perform this repair to the pad without even taking the motor board out of the cabinet, just tilted it up on its lever catch. I know, I know, I should have taken the pad arm off the motor first but I just put the darn motor back together this morning after cleaning it. Luckily I didn't glue the pad to the governor!

Thanks to all of you who helped me through the spring repair yesterday and the speed problem today. You guys are like a victrola pit crew! Need a T-shirt for that.

A victrola turns off of the track and into the pit, a man jacks it up while another changes the record all the while a third man winds it back up to send it on it's way in 20 seconds!

excuse my sad attempt at humor but I am just bouncing off the wall happy to see this thing run after who knows how many years.