The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Steve wrote:Alang, you're completely right. I also think though that the earlier machines have less 'use' given their limitations and most collectors like to use and play their machines so the 'display' machines get lower priority unless they're of the museum quality and a collector is hunting for that specific model.

True, that, but quite a change over the years.

In my youth, back in the late 1960's and early 1970's, back when I was young Master Kirtley's age, most of the collectors that I knew generally were not at all interested in playing their machines.

Some of these old gents hardy had any more records than would fit on the turntables and mandrels of their machines, and when a record was played; OH! what a sound!

One fellow, who had quite a collection of machines including some of considerable rarity, was so cheap that he would never replace the rear rubber ring in Exhibition reproducers, because "no one would see it".

His disc machines were inevitably set to revolve at around 100 RPM, and his cylinder machines at around 200 RPM because it made the military band records that he inevitably used for demonstration purposes sound "peppy", and incidentally covered up governor wobble.

For many years record collectors and talking machine collectors seemed almost to be in opposition to one another. Record collectors would not believe that the discs could be safely played on properly maintained old machines, and machine collectors could not understand the prices record collectors paid for premium discs.

It seems as if the tow areas of interest began to converge in the 1980's and 1990s, as a new generation of machine collectors who enjoy music and record collectors fascinated by machinery entered the hobbie(s).

Master Kirtley,

Welcome to the hobby of collecting and restoring old phonographs/gramophones. I am relatively new to this Forum and wish you luck in your endeavour or bringing back to life sad cases which have seen more than their share of time and neglect.

It is too bad you are not near Ottawa, Canada, so you could work with me on a few projects. I learned a lot from an older collector/restorer several years ago when I started.

Best of luck and feel free to ask questions - so far most of the posts I have read on this site have been very useful.

Bruce

So out of curiousity, what values would you place on clean versions of the following rigid arm phonographs with no repro parts?

My guestimates are:
R=$5,500
E=$2,700
M=$3,500
MS=$4,200

How much of a deduction would you take if the machine(s) had a repro record holddown? Does replaced turntable felt matter much? How about if the wood finish is original vs redone? What repro parts bother you the most on a phonograph?

Thanks

phonohound wrote:So out of curiousity, what values would you place on clean versions of the following rigid arm phonographs with no repro parts?

My guestimates are:
R=$5,500
E=$2,700
M=$3,500
MS=$4,200

How much of a deduction would you take if the machine(s) had a repro record holddown? Does replaced turntable felt matter much? How about if the wood finish is original vs redone? What repro parts bother you the most on a phonograph?

Thanks

Interesting points. The only generalizations I would make is that prices always fluctuate, original is better than reproduction, and the whole is not necessarily worth more than the sum of the parts. How do you explain the sale of an original (but early) record hold down for $1000+ and the sale of a complete Victor R for $1300, including original early record hold down. So is a complete R with repro hold down but otherwise original and complete worth $300? Or the sale of a Vic 3 back bracket and arm for $900+ So is the 3 without, or with repro arm worth $300 (including horn) or so? I think what it shows is that people are no longer willing to pay top dollar for less than excellent complete machines. As many have pointed out, in "the old days" a lot of machines were cobbled together not out of malice on the part of the seller, but because that's what was done and people paid no matter what the condition. Stratification of a market with the cream rising to the top has always happened no matter whats for sale. There was what appeared to be a really nice complete original ERJ Monarch on ebay recently that sold for a nice price almost instantly. Values and prices are no more or less than what someone is willing to pay at any given time, no matter what any book says, and many books point this out.

So to phonohound's question, if an original record hold down is $500-1000, but maybe closer to $300-400 is an E with repro hold down worth $2500-2700 less 400-1000? The answer: It's worth exactly what someone is ultimately willing to pay for it.

I think that like most forums these "worth or value" questions are not really promoted and in fact discouraged as it has nothing to do with collecting but, rather to do with selling or dealing. I too think (like Penman) that "value" is really what two people agree on....the buyer & seller. It would seem that most members that ask this "worth or value" question have an item on Ebay or is about to list one. My advice is simple. List your item with an accurate description and let the chips fall where they may.

I think what it shows is that people are no longer willing to pay top dollar for less than excellent complete machines. As many have pointed out, in "the old days" a lot of machines were cobbled together not out of malice on the part of the seller, but because that's what was done and people paid no matter what the condition. Stratification of a market with the cream rising to the top has always happened no matter whats for sale. There was what appeared to be a really nice complete original ERJ Monarch on ebay recently that sold for a nice price almost instantly. Values and prices are no more or less than what someone is willing to pay at any given time, no matter what any book says, and many books point this out.

So to phonohound's question, if an original record hold down is $500-1000, but maybe closer to $300-400 is an E with repro hold down worth $2500-2700 less 400-1000? The answer: It's worth exactly what someone is ultimately willing to pay for it.

Extremely wise words!

I agree entirely. However some dealers still believe that they can ask top dollar for less than great / complete machines. I only wish sometimes that other colectors would hold back something and then maybe the dealers would lower their prices. ALL dealers without exceptions try it on, some are much much worse than others.

You can't bemoan the prices paid at auction / Ebay though as it's the collectors and no one else who are determining the price.

.

Start it a $9.99. If it's a hot item it will still go for it's right "market" price.IMO.

Phonohound, I like your machine and if I lived over there I would hope to be able to negotiate with you and to buy it!

The things that put me off (and I am very particular, I can tell you) are:

a) record clamp - too new and shiny - doesn't match the rest of the machine
b) felt on platter
c) lack of black paint on the horn
d) cabinet looks to have been repolished within an inch of its life (from the PHOTOS anyway) ???? There is no 'patina' of age or evidence of it being original. Just look at the color in the pictures. It's too transparent and the the grain is too dark. Indeed if it IS all original, it's a pity that it's been way over 'cleaned' as it might just as well have been refinished.

Gramophone, you are correct about trying to find out a value for selling. That is typically the case when seeking a value. I am a seasoned collector and have a good idea of what rigid arm phonographs should sell for, but it looks like the market has changed. I don't want to sell something where I'm way off base and I feel this might be the case. If something is typically worth $1000 and I keep trying to sell it for $3000 without understanding why, what good is that?

Thank you to everyone on this board for their knowledge. Everyone has a specialty and it is this plus a willingness to share, that makes this a great forum.