The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I just bought a new Beethoven Edisonic phonograph. It is serial number 1200. It is the most pristine example that I've ever seen in that it appears untouched. It is left over dealer stock! The cabinet finish has not darkened like my other Beethoven. It could use a cleaning and a waxing, but then it's just been sitting around for the last 88 years! The interior looks especially clean. There are no chips that you usually see on the record dividers! I got it from a friend who just happened to be in a music store where he happened to mention that he collects old Victrolas. The lady said "Oh I have a Victrola made by Edison". "You see my grandfather was an Edison dealer in Phoenix." So he went over to see what the lady had and she had hundreds of DDs, a Beethoven Edisonic, a Diamond Disc cabinet, some literature, etc. She had a letter from the Edison Co. saying that the upcoming year will be the best year ever for Edison musical products, dated September, 1929! The Beethoven I bought has the Long Play attachment installed as well as an NOS Long Play reproducer still in the cradle with a cloth sack over it. I believe this equipment was installed back when the machine was in his store in 27 or 28 because there were 9 Long Play records in his left over record stock including some duplicates. They are all 10" records and I bought five of them for the Long Play mechanism. Did the Long Play kit that dealers installed include the 10/12 keys? My Beethoven does not have them. Unfortunately, my new Beethoven is missing the original Edisonic reproducer, but I already have several anyway. I'm probably one of the few people on Earth who own two Beethovens! A couple of years ago, after looking for some ten years, I gave up hope of ever finding a Beethoven for sale. Now it looks like I have one to sell.

Marc, what you describe is almost too good to be true; I had to sincerely consider whether you might be pulling an early April Fool's joke. Leaves me almost speechless. My goodness; even with the LP feature and LPs. Amazing, amazing, amazing....

1200--a very early number for a Beethoven as well.

Post pictures of course in due course.

Ralph

yes, I'm speechless too. I just got back from my phonograph mechanic. My new Beethoven had a broken spring and wouldn't wind up, so I had him take the motor out and thoroughly clean and install a new spring. He lubed everything and made sure the long play mechanism was in good order. It was, so we put it back together and started by playing a regular DD. Everything sounded great, so we tried several different reproducers including the Bogantz diaphragm and the Hollenberg diaphragm. They all sounded fine! So my mechanic oiled the NOS Long Play reproducer and made sure it was good and we proceeded to play the first Long Play Edisons that I've ever heard in person. I was fearing the worst as I've read that these records are so poor that they are virtually unplayable and have very unsatisfactory sound. I was very surprised when my Long Play records played flawlessly with surprisingly good loud sound!!! Amazing!

I said previously that I wondered why my Beethoven didn't have the 10"/12" keys. There is a very good reason that you've never seen an Edisonic with those tabs. For the 10/12 keys to work, the horn has to have an arm attached to the upper left part of the horn. On an Edisonic phonograph, the horn is far too low for the arm to reach the key tabs just under the motor board, so it would not work.

marcapra wrote: I said previously that I wondered why my Beethoven didn't have the 10"/12" keys. There is a very good reason that you've never seen and Edisonic with those tabs. For the 10/12 keys to work, the horn has to have and arm attached to the upper left part of the horn for the keys to work. On an Edisonic phonograph, the horn is far too low for the arm to reach the key tabs just under the motor board, so it would not work.

Also, the Edisonics (definitely the Schuberts; I believe the Beethovens too) don't have that wooden piece that covers the gap between the vertical sides of the cabinet and the motor board; perhaps a cost-cutting move. The 10"/12" keys need to be mounted on that wooden platform.

Oh, as to the Edison LP records: yes, they are talked down so frequently that I too was surprised at how loud they sound. Sure, they fall way short of an electrically-recorded record, but on the other hand you can see the attraction of having a long-play record and not having to run to the machine every four minutes. I think they're great and I collect them.

Good point. yes the 10/12 keys are attached to the motor board outside frame, but the Beethoven does have the wooden frame. The Schubert does not. I now own six of the eight 24 min. Long Play records and am missing 10004 and 10007. Of the 40 min. Long Play records, I have only one, 30002. The 40 min. Long Plays seem to be the rarer of the two types. Does your Schubert have the Long Play mechanism? And what LP Edisons do you have?

marcapra wrote:Good point. yes the 10/12 keys are attached to the motor board outside frame, but the Beethoven does have the wooden frame. The Schubert does not. I now own six of the eight 24 min. Long Play records and am missing 10004 and 10007. Of the 40 min. Long Play records, I have only one, 30002. The 40 min. Long Plays seem to be the rarer of the two types. Does your Schubert have the Long Play mechanism? And what LP Edisons do you have?

++++++++++++++++++

Ah, thank you for asking! I too own six of the eight 24 min and two of the six 40 min. During one of the Nauck's auction I bid high and won all thee Edison LPs he had listed; but in subsequent Nauctions someone else outbid me for any more (hey, probably YOU-- )

I do have the LP feature on my Schubert. Ever-helpful George Vollema got me the LP gear mechanism; I bought my LP reproducer via E-bay and it has turned out to be in great shape.

I'll cut & paste my list below:

10001: R:7/23/1926 (“Carmen—Selections--Bizet”/American Concert Orch.)
L:7/29/1926 (“Aida—Selections--Verdi”/American Concert Orch.)

10002: R:7/27-30/1926 (“Recollections of Gilbert & Sullivan”/Soman’s Salon Orch.)
L:7/28-30/1926 (“Memories of Victor Herbert”/ibid.)

10003: R:7/9/1926 (“Vespri Siciliani Overture—Verdi”/American Concert Orch.)
R:7/16/1926 (“Malaguena—Boabdil--Moszkowski”/American Concert Orch.)
L:6/18/1926 (“Manon—Selections--Massenet”/American Concert Orch.)
L:7/16/1926 (“Festival Dance & Valse of the Hours—Coppelia--Delibes”/American Concert Orch.)

10004: R:6/1914 (“Egmont Overture--Beethoven”/Sodero’s Band)
R:10/16/1913 (“Cupid’s Pranks—Caprice--Stahl”/Edison Woodwind Ensemble)
L:9/18/1924 (“La Belle Cubana—Habanera--White”/Spalding & Benoist)
L:9-10/1914 (“Spanish Dance no. 7—de Sarasate”/Spalding & Benoist)
L:12/6/1913 (“Cigarieres—Habanera—Gervasio-Tobani”/Edison Woodwind Ensemble)

10005: R:2/1917 (“Amoureuse Valse”/American Concert Orch.)
R:4/17/1924 (“Dance Hongroise”/Wiedhoeft)
R:n.d. (“Serenade—Spanish Waltz--Metra”/American Concert Orch.)
L:⅚/1926 (“Iolanthe—Selections”/Sodero’s Band)
L:7/6/1926 (“Then You’ll Remember Me” from “Bohemian Girl”/White)

10008: R:3/29/1927 (“Merry Widow Selections”/B.A. Rolfe & His Palais D’Or Orch.)
R:3/18/1927 (“O Promise Me” from “Robin Hood”/B.A. Rolfe & His Palais D’Or Orch.)
R:3/29/1927 (“The Chocolate Soldier Selections”/B.A. Rolfe and His Palais D’Or Orch.)
L:⅖/1927 (“My Lady’s Boudoir”/B.A. Rolfe & His Concert Orch.)
L:3/18/1927 (“Don’t Be Cross”/B.A. Rolfe)

12” records

30001: R:7/20/1926 (“The Prince of Pilsen—Selections--Luders”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
R:7/28/1926 (“Wiener Blut Waltz--Strauss”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
R:7/27/1926 (“The World is Waiting for the Sunrise--Lockhart”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
R:7/28/1926 (“Hungarian Dance No. 5--Brahms”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
L:7/22/1926 (“Woodland Selections--Luders”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
L:7/27/1926 (“Serenade” from “Les Millions D’arlequin—Drigo”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
L:7/27/1926 (“A Little Love, a Little Kiss--Ross”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)
L:7/28/1926 (”Serenata--Moszkowski”/Hotel Commodore Ensemble)

30002: R:5/21/1917 (“William Tell Overture--Rossini”/Sodero’s Band)
R:3/2/1915 (“Sextet from ‘Lucia Di Lammermoor’--Donizetti”/Sodero’s Band)
R:6/1915 (“La Gioconda—La Furiana--Ponchielli”/Sodero’s Band)
R:10/12/1913 (“Tannhauser March--Wagner”/Sodero’s Band)
L:10/3/1916 (“Poet & Peasant Overture—von Suppe”/American Symphony Orch.)
L:5/1915 (“Norma—Hear Me--Bellini”/Spindler & Giammateo)
L:11/1917 (“La Gioconda—Dance of the Hours--Ponchielli”/American Symphony Orch.)

No, I wasn't the one who outbid you! In fact, five of mine were just purchased from the left over stock of that Phoenix Edison dealer. That is a fine collection you have! I guess you would agree that the 40 min. 12" Long Plays are the rarest of a rare niche in collecting. I'm lucky also in that all mine are E to E+ condition, possibly unplayed. Do you know if anyone sells reproductions of the sleeves?

I should mention another odd thing about my new Beethoven. It has a speed control knob in the upper left corner of the motor board. That must be a modification, correct?

I do agree about the 40 minute records! It takes a double spring machine, fully cranked up, to barely make it through one side. One of my 40 min. records is in good enough shape that it will track all the way through, and it is amazing to have a hand-crank machine do that.

You're absolutely right about the top-side speed control knob being a modification on your Beethoven; they and the Schuberts came with out it. But the Edison disc motor boards were essentially unchanged between 1912 and 1929, meaning they were interchangeable between the various models & cabinets. My theory is that various dealers would facilitate these switches--and that would be in keeping with the Edison company's practice of allowing for modifications and upgrades. An Edisonic owner who had owned a pre-Edisonic DD machine might very well wish to keep the speed control by simply transferring the motor board from their old machine; or having the dealer make the switch from their supplies. The horn assembly of course can be removed from one motor board to another.

I'll confess to you here--and to all on the board--that when I bought my Schubert Edisonic I did not want to give up the top-side speed control. So I left its motor board with the seller and put into it the motor board (with speed control) from my former DD machine, which was an S-19. I figured that this had been done plenty of times "in the day" and continues to be done by hobbyists. It's a reversible modification--so where's the harm?

So, my Schubert has the LP gearing and reproducer; a double spring (which I took from a Chippendale), and the top-side speed control.

I've argued elsewhere on this board that not every last antique phonograph has to be treated as a museum piece; upgrading and swapping components is OK if it was likely "done in the day"--and if one does no lasting damage.

A la Maria Callas, I want to enjoy my music; authentic, but also maximal capacity for the era represented.

There's my confession, whether priests stand at the ready or no....

Ralph

Aw, you are in deep sh!t now. At least with some of our membership.

I have an LP mech in my Schubert too, switched only after doing a detailed review of the two mechanisms. The only difference was the casting numbers on the undersides of the motorboards (plus the LP gearing of course). No speed controls on either, and two spring barrels and shock-proof governors on both.

Adjusting the speed on the underside of a late DD motor is pretty hard to do without whatever tool they made for their service folks, but it's possible.

I'm also going to add a C-2 tonearm assembly to my Schubert at some point soon, so I will have the ultimate in doomed Edison tech all in one place. It'll run to a small modern pre-amp and hence to the input of the orthophonic horn of the Credenza that sits next to it, or perhaps I'll make a transducer to fit up to the mouth of the Edisonic horn. Or both. It's what my grandmother would have termed "monkeying around."

Everything is completely reversible and well-documented.

PeterF wrote:Aw, you are in deep sh!t now. At least with some of our membership.

I'm also going to add a C-2 tonearm assembly to my Schubert at some point soon, so I will have the ultimate in doomed Edison tech all in one place. It'll run to a small modern pre-amp and hence to the input of the orthophonic horn of the Credenza that sits next to it, or perhaps I'll make a transducer to fit up to the mouth of the Edisonic horn. Or both. It's what my grandmother would have termed "monkeying around."

Everything is completely reversible and well-documented.

Peter, you're the ultimate reprobate--duly elected by the rest of us who live in the land of reversible modification. What a cool set-up you propose! Post pictures sometime. The People of the City will be shocked, but those of us in the townships will marvel.

Of course, if you slip into dementia someday and attempt to sell it on E-bay, the People of the City will call it a Crap-o-phone. Have one of your town fellows signed on as your guardian against such a development.