Continuing Pathé investigations: record wear

[Edisone]

My Actuelle puts so little pressure on the records that wear seems inpossible - UNLESS your machine has the long, long link touching the inside of the tube. The most critical adjustment is that - the link must not touch that tube, or it will be forced to vibrate the whole assembly & wear your records to death.

[JohnM]

Not sure how the "long link" could touch the inside of the tube unless it has bent at an angle. The link is primarily a hollow tube constructed of extremely thin material, the wall thickness being somewhere between an aluminum beverage can and heavy foil. It literally maintains it's rigidity under the tension between the spring-loaded needle chuck assembly and the conical metal plate at the apex of the diffusor. The slightest dent will cause it to bend at that point. At that point, record wear would probably be caused by the loss of equilibrium the tube afforded the needle chuck against the spring-tension. At that point, it wouldn't play well if at all.

[pughphonos]

Yesterday I received another shipment of Pathé vertical discs (E-bay winnings) to add to my growing collection. They are in varying stages of wear. The ones worn the most have so much surface noise that the underlying recording is relatively muted and one must listen carefully.

Unless there is evidence of steel needle usage, it can't be denied that all those worn (and in some cases, "worn out") Pathé vertical discs were worn down through repeated playings on Pathé sapphire-equipped machines. Of course one could argue that the wear occurred in situations where the tone arm was bearing too much weight, was misaligned, etc. Those might be contributing factors, but my layman's theory is that these records would wear out on Pathé machines even under optimal and proper operating conditions.

Here's the theory, for what it's worth. Sure, the Pathé stylus is sapphire and round; supposedly so much better than those mean, brutish steel needles that rip and tear into records (I'm of course parodying the Pathé advertising lingo of the 1910s and 1920s). But consider this: the Pathé vertical records relied on vertical groove displacements that were FULLY EXPOSED in those much-praised shallow and wide grooves--and those vertical "hills and dales" were under the DIRECT PRESSURE of the sapphire ball. Whereas with lateral, needle-cut records, much of the weight of the reproducer was carried to the BOTTOM of the groove by the steel needle while the groove displacements (carrying the music) were etched along the SIDES of the grooves and did not carry the full weight of the tone arm.

In short, the sapphire ball, which was supposedly so much gentler to record surfaces than steel needles, was in all probability a worse enemy of the recorded signals than steel needles.

What do you all think?

Ralph

[gregbogantz]

I am in agreement with other posters here who have not seen problems with excessive record wear on Pathé Sapphire discs when played with a proper sapphire ball stylus in a proper reproducer in good condition. Because of the LARGE diameter of the ball and the commensurate large radius of the Pathé groove, compared with the Edison stylus or a steel needle, there is a large contact area between the stylus and record by design. This should adequately support and distribute the tracking force without creating large pressure on any part of the groove that would promote excessive wear. Again, the stylus and reproducer must be in good condition to keep wear to a minimum, just as with any other type of phonograph. I have a number of Pathé records and they all look quite good and don't exhibit excessive wear. I have a suspicion that more than a few Pathé discs were subjected to playback with steel needles on Victor machines during their lifetimes. This would be deadly to the record, just as it is to an Edison DD. You may be in possession of some of these mistreated Pathé records which may be why they look and sound worn.

[pughphonos]

I like this good, vigorous discussion among well-behaved hobbyists.

Believe me, I'm not trying to be contrary. Pathé is a pioneering company that produced some very interesting innovations and gave us recordings of a certain tonality that will always engage critical listeners.

But I remain unconvinced that the Pathé sapphire stylus does not excessively wear the vertical records. I have already considered the theory that the sapphire ball would not excessively wear the records as it presents a broad surface and the weight of contact is therefore widely-distributed across the groove. Still, this does not seem to address the basic issue that the stylus rests entirely on the "hills and dales" and is not even partly supported by a music-less bottom of groove (as one finds on lateral-cut records).

I am assuming that the Edison Diamond Disc surfaces do not face similar wear (though vertical cut just like Pathé) as the DD record surfaces are much tougher than the Pathé vertical surfaces.

But Paul Dodington probably has a better argument, as given in his 2011 presentation before the Canadian Antique Phonograph Society. Paul is definitely a Pathé fan. But he argues that the Pathé reproducers are too rigid and are a chief cause of record wear. To quote him from that talk:

"One of the difficulties that one soon encounters when playing Pathé or other sapphire records on conventional gramophones with proper attachments, and even on Pathé machines equipped with proper Pathé sound-boxes, is fairly rapid record wear, even with a perfect ball stylus. This wear is caused by a number of factors, but mainly by the heavy weight of reproducers, coupled with the inability of the stylus to properly track the vertical undulation due to the relative inflexibility of the diaphragm and excessive mass of the stylus bar assembly."

He then goes on to sing the praises of the Victor orthophonic sound box, which not only has greater tonal and pitch range but also greater flexibility in its stylus assembly--which markedly reduced record wear as compared with the previous Victor sound boxes.

His argument still convinces me.

Ralph

[CarlosV]

Here in Europe, where the Pathé discs survive in much higher number than in the US, and which were put in the market one decade before, the evidence is in the contrary. There is a high number of prints from the first three decades of the 20th century, center starts and edge starts, that can be found with no significant wear. If the sapphire ball would systematically wear out the discs, we would not find such high number of discs in good shape today. A chipped sapphire however would create such systematic damage to a collection of the unfortunate owner, so I would guess that if you have bought a lot with most discs worn out, the cause may lie in the use of a bad stylus.

There may be differences in the base material of the discs between the European and the US production, which may render the US discs more susceptible to wear, but this is not confirmed by the samples in my collection, in which the percentage of US discs with significant wear is the same as the Europeans, about 20%. I have some US discs that have evidence of having been played several times, from the marks and wear on the label and the scratches on the disc surface, but the playing surface does not show the level of wear that equivalent lateral cut discs with the same number of playings would show. Granted, this is empirical experience, but it seems to contradict the assertion of systematic wear caused by sapphire.

[pughphonos]

Carlos, glad you're staying up late over there!

You might be on to something in suggesting that the Pathé records could have been made of different materials on either side of the Atlantic--thus affecting the wear issue. Plus, Pathé phonographs made for the U.S. market (such as the Actuelle) might have tracked differently than their European brethren.

As for empirical evidence, I'm glad your collection consists of 80% nice records. My empirical evidence tends the other way. I emphasize that my Pathé verticals do not seem to have needle damage; needle "strips" are pretty obvious to experienced record collectors.

We Pathé collectors have to just patiently deal with each other as there is so little literature published on this brand (as compared with the copious documentation and commentary available for Victor and Edison). We have much to learn from each other--and at present we are all we have.

[Valecnik]

I have about 100-150 Pathé center starts in various sizes all purchased in Europe. I'd say at least half of mine exhibit enought record wear, especially closer to the center, that I'd visually rate them in the V, V+ grade. Even the ones with visible wear can sound quite loud and clear though on my Pathéphone no. 12, for some reason noticeably louder on the earlier Model D.

[FloridaClay]

Yesterday I received another shipment of Pathé vertical discs (E-bay winnings) to add to my growing collection. They are in varying stages of wear. The ones worn the most have so much surface noise that the underlying recording is relatively muted and one must listen carefully.

Unless there is evidence of steel needle usage, it can't be denied that all those worn (and in some cases, "worn out") Pathé vertical discs were worn down through repeated playings on Pathé sapphire-equipped machines.
Ralph

I would not rely on records bought off eBay to support that proposition. A buyer has no idea how those records have been treated over the past decades in most instances. Many outside the collector community have no clue that they are not supposed to be played (or attempt to be played) on ordinary phonographs with steel needles. Few these days even know there were vertical and lateral cut records and what that meant. And even if some past owners knew to use a sapphire stylus, they may have kept playing them long after the stylus in the machine was worn out or damaged.

Not too long ago I bought an Edison Diamond Disc machine from someone who had acquired it from a neighbor years ago. They were playing Diamond Discs with the lateral disc adopter that had been on the tone arm when they got it. They had no clue what the Edison reproducer that had come with the machine was for. Still worse the steel needle in the adopter was rusty and had obviously not been changed in years! Needless to say the Diamond Discs that the had were almost all trashed. Was that due to defective Edison design? Certainly not.

Clay

[pughphonos]

Well, all, this has been an interesting discussion. By all means let it continue, but I'm taking away my own conclusions at this point. The discussion has produced ample testimony on "both sides of the isle" on the question "Do Pathé machines produce excess wear on Pathé vertical records?"

I find that those who believe that excess wear DOES occur are willing/able to speak to technical issues such as groove pressure and compliance as well as having seen their fair share of worn Pathé discs that were NOT damaged by steel needles or bad styli (and we all know that sort of episodic damage when we see it). Valecnik above notes that many of his inner-start Pathé discs show excessive wear in the inner grooves, strongly suggesting a Pathé-specific issue, as opposed to needle damage that could appear at any point on a disc.

In defense of e-bay dealers, many grade their records very fairly and I have many, many excellent records of all makes from those sources.

Those of us who have wanted to explore the issue of Pathé-induced damage have been willing to admit all the other possible culprits (bad styli; damaged tone arms; steel needles; etc.). But it seems like the defenders of the Pathé system don't really want to consider the strong circumstantial evidence that the Pathé sapphire ball is ONE of the causes of excess wear--even when some of the other causes can be ruled out.

I'm going to keep my Pathé Actuelle (Sheraton Art model) paper cone phonograph as it is a marvelous curiosity. But I must conclude:

1) Though the Actuelle paper cone models were roughly equal in sound production (when marketed/released in 1918-1920) when compared with the internal horn Victrola, Columbias, etc. of the time, the Victrola orthophonics and the Edisonics of the mid-1920s far outstripped them. "Roughly equal" is being generous, actually. A Victrola with a No. 2 sound box of the late 1910s and early 1920s probably produced a better result than the Pathé Actuelle.

NOTE: I've been suggesting through this entire string that the Pathé Actuelle (paper cone) model could very well have been worse (in terms of sound production and record wear) than the European Pathés or all Pathé makes of earlier years. But some posters, in their rush to defend Pathé products in their entirety, have not taken the opportunity to explore/compare the differences between the various models. Same with the issue (suggested by one of you) that perhaps the U.S.-made and European-made Pathé discs might have been made with different materials.

2) The shallow Pathé vertical grooves are problematic. Unless you can religiously keep your Pathé machine level you are going to have the reproducer skipping/skidding across the record surfaces more than is reasonable to expect, even in the land of antique phonographs. An antique phonograph repairman (my local one; he's run his business for forty-plus years) advised against my purchase of the Pathé Actuelle due to the skidding issue.

3) By the testimony of many who have made technical investigation (viz. Paul Dodington), the Pathé reproducer assemblies do not have sufficient compliance to prevent excessive record wear.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a huge lack of published information on Pathé, particular the U.S. models and records. I'm hoping to see that remedied in the years to come. I'd like to see the Pathé enthusiasts have the same varied and copious secondary literature that the Edison people have: a literature that celebrates all the fine points of the product without hesitating to admit that, yes, there WERE downsides as well. Before my visit to Pathé Land I'd devoted most of the last five years to collecting Edison records and collecting/restoring/repairing both Edison disc and cylinder machines. Edison people will tell you that Edison produced some of the best AND worst phonographs and records of the 1890-1929 period. It wouldn't hurt the Pathé enthusiasts to admit the same about the Pathé models. It's called being realistic.

OK, I'm done being a bull in a China shop. Or, to be more topical: jumping up and down and making your Pathé records skid all over their surfaces.

Fraternally,

Ralph