EMGCR and Expert Senior playing the same performance.

[chunnybh]

i can download youtube videos onto my computer, i will see if i can post them as files on here!

I don't think you can simply load files onto a forum. You still need to host them somewhere.
I have had a few blocked videos on Youtube. I simply challenged the copyright infringement and the ban was lifted.

[Valecnik]

i can download youtube videos onto my computer, i will see if i can post them as files on here!

I don't think you can simply load files onto a forum. You still need to host them somewhere.
I have had a few blocked videos on Youtube. I simply challenged the copyright infringement and the ban was lifted.

You should aggressively do that by the way. I uploaded about 30 videos of Edison discs and cylinders on my youTube channel and got about 40 separate claims, (multiple claims) on 25 of the 30 videos.

I challenged all of them. It took a couple months but all were finally lifted.

[Frankia]

All three videos now being disputed on the grounds that they were recorded almost 86 years ago. I hope that is the sort of fact that makes a difference.

Below are two further uploads of both gramophones - this time of a performance which sounds better from the Expert in the actual room. I should add that I have never been completely happy with this room as a sound environment for any of the external horn gramophones in comparison to what I've heard from them in other people's rooms The camera records things considerably louder than they are in reality and seems to exacerbate that, with the larger horned EMGCR suffering more than the Expert.
I have an EMG Xb here as well, the next size below the EMG Oversize horn, but I just recently took out the motor to try and re-grease the springs so it's out of commission. Otherwise we could bring it into the comparisons.

I hope Bach doesn't put non-Classical people off too much! It's not easy to find records where the Senior, in unrecorded reality, sounds noticeably better than the Oversize.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygikpcVd3XI EMGCR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vqIyosmAEQ Expert.

[dd2u]

I hope Bach doesn't put non-Classical people off too much!

Not at all. That is really beautiful.

The EMGCR link should be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygikpcVd3XI

From these two videos, I prefer the Expert. The sonority is much superior, and though it may be because my imagination has been triggered by some of the earlier comments, I think the pitch stability is slightly better.

[Frankia]

Link now changed hopefully. Thanks.
When you speak of pitch instability, are you referring to little fast moving inconsistencies? If you are, you've hit on something that had some of us tearing our hair out here in the past! The EMGCR motor has been rigorously renovated and serviced with that very issue in mind. While an irregularity in the motor did indeed show up eventually, and it took one of those "needle in a haystack" searches to identify it, I have also come to the conclusion that there is something in the EMG reproduction that shows up the slightest inconsistency in a record, whereas the Expert will not show it up as easily. Both EMG type gramophones here are noticeably more sensitive to reproducing pitch irregularity than the Expert. That also holds for surface noise. For instance, the dreaded HMV crackle is more noticeable on the EMGs than on the Expert. I suspect myself that the "drier" EMG reproduction leaves no shelter for anything negative. By the same token it also reproduces the good in an awesome way. The Expert tends to bring out an added reverb resonance in the reproduction that provides a slight amount of shelter for irregularities.
However - both EMGs have mechanical motors (Garrard Super and Collaro D30) whereas the Expert has an electric one. Maybe my whole thinking needs a revamp?! On the other hand the "reproduction" explanation has also been posited by another very committed EMG enthusiast. Also I have another spring wound gramophone here that doesn't show up that kind of pitch fluctuation as quickly as the EMGs.
Useful and informative feedback. Thanks indeed.

[CptBob]

I haven't had time to sit down and listen to the Bach properly yet, but following on from Frankia's last post, part of my reason for preferring the Expert in the Mendelssohn is that I found the music more emotionally engaging. There was more of a sense of a whole performance. Obviously there are caveats, it is a piece I know very well and perhaps there's some very subtle psychology going on there. Who knows. Actually I'd be very, very happy to own either machine - or even the expert minor that's just been withdrawn from ebay.

Turning to the Bach, I'm not sure I can derive so much enjoyment from that performance. I'm of an age (56) where I more or less grew up with period instrument performance. Romantic Medelssohn is one thing, Bach played on a symphony orchestra and piano is another. I miss the sound of silvery toned gut strings. Perhaps when I sit down quietly to listen to both I'll be more objective. Please don't take that as a criticism. That is the beauty of 78s though, they do give a great insight into 20th century playing styles.

[Orchorsol]

Those new videos are wonderful, many thanks for posting them Frankia!

I'll refrain from commenting on the perceived differences, although I find the discussions fascinating - through a microphone (even if very well recorded), then digital compression, then the internet, then whatever speakers/headphones (even if good) it's a long way from the original sound, necessarily. Plus I believe no conventional speakers can provide the same holographic presence so stunningly created by the Wilson lineage of horns. Not meaning to be a party pooper, though! The above doesn't stop me enjoying the videos of these fine majestic instruments hugely. Nor wanting to put some up myself one day, as mentioned previously.

Fascinating thoughts on motors and 'shelter/blend/dryness' etc in the reproduction characteristics - I'll have to do some more serious listening to mine. Question, how much of the perceived difference might reside in the soundbox? How do they fare when you use the same soundbox of the EMGCR and the Senior? It all gets a bit lengthy, doesn't it - after a certain point I just prefer to enjoy the music and as we've said, horses for courses, after a while one gets to know which machine/soundbox/needle sounds best for a given record - not always predictable either!

[Frankia]

I haven't had time to sit down and listen to the Bach properly yet, but following on from Frankia's last post, part of my reason for preferring the Expert in the Mendelssohn is that I found the music more emotionally engaging. There was more of a sense of a whole performance. Obviously there are caveats, it is a piece I know very well and perhaps there's some very subtle psychology going on there. Who knows. Actually I'd be very, very happy to own either machine - or even the expert minor that's just been withdrawn from ebay.

Turning to the Bach, I'm not sure I can derive so much enjoyment from that performance. I'm of an age (56) where I more or less grew up with period instrument performance. Romantic Medelssohn is one thing, Bach played on a symphony orchestra and piano is another. I miss the sound of silvery toned gut strings. Perhaps when I sit down quietly to listen to both I'll be more objective. Please don't take that as a criticism. That is the beauty of 78s though, they do give a great insight into 20th century playing styles.

No criticism construed! After all, most of this whole thing boils down to personal preference in the end. I don't myself see either EMG, Expert or indeed HMV as being superior or inferior to each other. If I did I wouldn't have this room full of gramophones and my pockets empty! I like to see it as a matter of happy enjoyment and personal preference and enrichment.
The music recorded has to be the same doesn't it? My own field is the Irish Traditional music recorded in the USA in the nineteen twenties and thirties. I've come to classical in the last ten years or so and, apart from the obvious beauty and depth of much of it, enjoy it partly because I don't know enough about it to take it apart and put it back together again. I can just listen to it as music. So feel free to voice your preferences if the mood takes you.

[Frankia]

Those new videos are wonderful, many thanks for posting them Frankia!

I'll refrain from commenting on the perceived differences, although I find the discussions fascinating - through a microphone (even if very well recorded), then digital compression, then the internet, then whatever speakers/headphones (even if good) it's a long way from the original sound, necessarily. Plus I believe no conventional speakers can provide the same holographic presence so stunningly created by the Wilson lineage of horns. Not meaning to be a party pooper, though! The above doesn't stop me enjoying the videos of these fine majestic instruments hugely. Nor wanting to put some up myself one day, as mentioned previously.

Fascinating thoughts on motors and 'shelter/blend/dryness' etc in the reproduction characteristics - I'll have to do some more serious listening to mine. Question, how much of the perceived difference might reside in the soundbox? How do they fare when you use the same soundbox of the EMGCR and the Senior? It all gets a bit lengthy, doesn't it - after a certain point I just prefer to enjoy the music and as we've said, horses for courses, after a while one gets to know which machine/soundbox/needle sounds best for a given record - not always predictable either!

Agreed on every point. I have uploaded all of these more for the fun of sharing than anything else and hadn't bargained on getting all these nuggets of thought provoking insight from everyone who has commented! But the youtube rendition is a poor second to what one hears in the room. Looking forward to hearing the results of your own skill and knowledge in this eventually.
My two four springs, EMG and Expert are the best soundboxes I have by a comfortable head. It's a good while since I swapped them around. When I last did, I came to the conclusion that the EMG was best on the EMG and likewise for the Expert. There's no doubt that the soundbox makes a vast difference to the whole performance. I am going to have to stop this uploading lark for a while however as I see lots of work looming over the next several days!
In the end I do exactly as you say Orchorsol - I just stop the comparing and listen to the lot of them and love every minute of it!

[Valecnik]

Frankia, regarding your dissatisfaction with your listening room, it looks pretty good to me. From what I can tell in the videos it looks like the machines are placed more or less in corners of a smaller to medium sized room. I would think that's almost ideal.

It would also be nice to hear a comparison of those machines playing some nice 1928, 29, 30 dance or Jazz, Whiteman or Al Bowley if you happen to have any.