The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Union is such a great show but it can be overwhelming for a first time attendee. There is so much for sale and many things are quickly sold. The first time I went, I felt like a little fish in a big pond. I remember a Vic VI that was purchased and resold at least four times. I remember seeing a fancy case Victor D in mahogany. I went to find a friend to get his opinion and when we returned, it was already sold. Over the years I've become friends with many of the dealers and attendees and, in spite of the Union frenzy, it seems to have slowed down for me.

A few years ago, a friend attended Union for the first time. It was so overwhelming to him that he and his wife left the show in preference to visiting some local antique shops. In one of the shops he found a quantity of cylinders and really enjoyed leisurely sorting and making his selections in peace. When he returned, he asked if I would walk around and help them find a nice Triumph and we were successful.

Union advice:
1- If you have something specific in mind, know the fair price range and be ready to pull the trigger when you find it at a reasonable price.
2- Take cash. I am a dealer as well as a collector. If you give me cash there's a really good chance I'll spend it. The money stops if you give me a check.
3- Be an early buyer and attend on Friday.
4- Be in the parking lot an hour early on Friday and Saturday. Things are not supposed to be bought and sold but it's a great time to visit and find out what is available.
5- Don't be afraid to dicker on price. As a seller, I am happy to give my best price but I am offended when I give that price and a buyer offers less. There are many attendees from other countries. It's really a cultural thing and any offense I feel is probably not intended.
6- Take some time to enjoy the Wild West Town including the museum, silent movies, gun fights, and have a chocolate malt.
7- Go to Jasper's on Saturday evening. You might be so tired it may seem difficult to put one foot in front of the other, but go to Jasper's. You can thank me on Sunday.
8- Support Ron Sitko. Ron has a booth and brings his huge supply of high quality reproduction parts. It's a good place to stock up of the things you'll need during the year like needles, flanges, reproducer gaskets, 14" horns, cranks, and a plethora of other parts. Where do you think the internet sellers get their parts?

What do other veterans suggest??? Jerry Blais

Jerry B. wrote:What do other veterans suggest??? Jerry Blais

Visit the bar, it helps the money flow out of your wallet faster

HisMastersVoice wrote:

Jerry B. wrote:What do other veterans suggest??? Jerry Blais

Visit the bar, it helps the money flow out of your wallet faster

That it does!

Sean

OrthoSean wrote:

HisMastersVoice wrote:

Jerry B. wrote:What do other veterans suggest??? Jerry Blais

Visit the bar, it helps the money flow out of your wallet faster

That it does!

Sean

One time after having followed this advice I, Phonocookie and another friend were standing at the back of my pickup packing up our loot when one of us noticed three 100 dollar bills among our feet. We knew one of his had dropped it and was out $300 but none of us had kept good track of what we spent and anyway, counting had become difficult. We quickly agreed to split it three ways, the only solution really...

Jerry B. wrote:Union is such a great show but it can be overwhelming for a first time attendee. There is so much for sale and many things are quickly sold. The first time I went, I felt like a little fish in a big pond. I remember a Vic VI that was purchased and resold at least four times. I remember seeing a fancy case Victor D in mahogany. I went to find a friend to get his opinion and when we returned, it was already sold. Over the years I've become friends with many of the dealers and attendees and, in spite of the Union frenzy, it seems to have slowed down for me.

A few years ago, a friend attended Union for the first time. It was so overwhelming to him that he and his wife left the show in preference to visiting some local antique shops. In one of the shops he found a quantity of cylinders and really enjoyed leisurely sorting and making his selections in peace. When he returned, he asked if I would walk around and help them find a nice Triumph and we were successful.

Union advice:
1- If you have something specific in mind, know the fair price range and be ready to pull the trigger when you find it at a reasonable price.
2- Take cash. I am a dealer as well as a collector. If you give me cash there's a really good chance I'll spend it. The money stops if you give me a check.
3- Be an early buyer and attend on Friday.
4- Be in the parking lot an hour early on Friday and Saturday. Things are not supposed to be bought and sold but it's a great time to visit and find out what is available.
5- Don't be afraid to dicker on price. As a seller, I am happy to give my best price but I am offended when I give that price and a buyer offers less. There are many attendees from other countries. It's really a cultural thing and any offense I feel is probably not intended.
6- Take some time to enjoy the Wild West Town including the museum, silent movies, gun fights, and have a chocolate malt.
7- Go to Jasper's on Saturday evening. You might be so tired it may seem difficult to put one foot in front of the other, but go to Jasper's. You can thank me on Sunday.
8- Support Ron Sitko. Ron has a booth and brings his huge supply of high quality reproduction parts. It's a good place to stock up of the things you'll need during the year like needles, flanges, reproducer gaskets, 14" horns, cranks, and a plethora of other parts. Where do you think the internet sellers get their parts?

What do other veterans suggest??? Jerry Blais

I'm sounding like a broken record, but I second all eight points that Jerry advises.

One thing to add: I've never had a wad of money to spend, and when I started going to shows like Union (1980!) I had it in my head that if I found something I liked a lot, and the price seemed reasonable and I could afford it, it would still be a good idea for me to look around the rest of the show in case I found the same thing for less. I quickly learned not to do that. And in all the intervening years there was only one time...ONE TIME...that I found the same item for less. It was five bucks less!

The caveat to "buy it when you see it" is that you'd better know what you're doing. There's no substitute for experience, but a solid knowledge of what you're looking for is essential too. Over the years I've preached "Education, Education, Education" and that means consulting books and catalogs. Like the bumper sticker says, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!"

If you're interested in Victor, you need Baumbach's Look for the Dog and The Victor Data Book.

If you're interested in Columbia, you need the Columbia Phonograph Companion Vol I (Guide to Columbia Cylinder Graphophones) and Vol. II (Guide to Disc Graphophones).

If you're interested in Edison, you need Frow's Edison Cylinder Phonograph Companion and Frow's Edison Disc Phonographs.

If you're interested in all of the above and more, there's the Fabrizio/Paul series, described here:

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ilit=books

In most respects, finding the object of your search at a show is far better than finding it on the Internet. You can see it, touch it, examine it closely, and negotiate with the seller. Take it home with no additional shipping fees and without fear of poor packing and breakage in transit. And while you're looking, you gain incomparable experience seeing what certain items SHOULD look like. Over time, you'll realize how true this is when you think, "Something's not quite right here..." and closer examination reveals that you're right. Your subconscious takes note of the geometry of a Columbia disc machine horn vs. a Victor, plus thousands of other subtle things.

As you can see, I'm a big supporter of shows, and Union is definitely worth attending if you possibly can.

Good luck!

George P.

Everything mentioned so far is true and correct. But I personally think that 75% of the business volume, perhaps more, is between dealers. Further to what Jerry said about asking a dealer for his "best price" and then offering less, DON'T make a half-baked "offer" such as "would you take $XXXX" and then if the dealer accepts, claim that you'll think about it, etc. Also, the prices you'll get at the show are for the show only; don't expect to call the dealer the next week, and accept his price, and expect him then to hassle with shipping, etc. Some of us pay dearly to haul our stuff to and from the show; and like Jerry says, by selling at the show we can turn around and buy more stuff then and there.

I also might caution not to expect any great "deal" just by using cash. I for one find cash problematic and would prefer checks, PayPal, etc., and don't grant any extra discount for cash. Over the years I've bought a lot more than I've sold at Union, and I don't really think paying by check has caused me to lose out on any good buys.

But whatever you do, don't miss it, Union is one-of-a-kind, for sure!

Raphael

raphael wrote:Everything mentioned so far is true and correct. But I personally think that 75% of the business volume, perhaps more, is between dealers. Further to what Jerry said about asking a dealer for his "best price" and then offering less, DON'T make a half-baked "offer" such as "would you take $XXXX" and then if the dealer accepts, claim that you'll think about it, etc. Also, the prices you'll get at the show are for the show only; don't expect to call the dealer the next week, and accept his price, and expect him then to hassle with shipping, etc. Some of us pay dearly to haul our stuff to and from the show; and like Jerry says, by selling at the show we can turn around and buy more stuff then and there.

I also might caution not to expect any great "deal" just by using cash. I for one find cash problematic and would prefer checks, PayPal, etc., and don't grant any extra discount for cash. Over the years I've bought a lot more than I've sold at Union, and I don't really think paying by check has caused me to lose out on any good buys.

But whatever you do, don't miss it, Union is one-of-a-kind, for sure!

Raphael

I agree about the half baked offers. If one makes an offer and the dealer accepts, honor it. Some years ago a potential purchaser gave me what I considered a low ball offer. I accepted. I guess I wanted to move something. Then he went on to tell me he really didn't have the money and asked if I'd hold it for him. I said I would if he was able to give me half the amount as a down payment. He declined and asked me to give him my contact information which I did. April of the next year, he called and said he had the money for the machine and asked if I could deliver it to Union. I told him I'd sold it later at the show, 10 months ago. He got very bent out of shape, said I'd promised to hold it for him. The whole exchange was very weird, especially considering we were talking about an Edison B80 that I'd sold for around $300!

This will be my first time attending. I have attended the Orlando show several times and the Wayne show once. I'm very much looking forward to it. Thanks for all of the advice. I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. What is Jasper?

2. I would love to see the Sanfilippo estate while I'm there... I'm registered on their website, but I haven't seen any announcements. I found the info on this site last year when someone posted a video and it was mentioned that the estate is opened to the phonograph enthusiasts attending Union... anyone have any info on this?

Thanks,

Edward

Flvice wrote:This will be my first time attending. I have attended the Orlando show several times and the Wayne show once. I'm very much looking forward to it. Thanks for all of the advice. I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. What is Jasper?

2. I would love to see the Sanfilippo estate while I'm there... I'm registered on their website, but I haven't seen any announcements. I found the info on this site last year when someone posted a video and it was mentioned that the estate is opened to the phonograph enthusiasts attending Union... anyone have any info on this?

Thanks,

Edward

Jasper is Mr. Sanfilippo's first name.
I was there for the first time last year and recommend you go. I don't know the details about the date and time though.

Flvice wrote:This will be my first time attending. I have attended the Orlando show several times and the Wayne show once. I'm very much looking forward to it. Thanks for all of the advice. I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. What is Jasper?

2. I would love to see the Sanfilippo estate while I'm there... I'm registered on their website, but I haven't seen any announcements. I found the info on this site last year when someone posted a video and it was mentioned that the estate is opened to the phonograph enthusiasts attending Union... anyone have any info on this?

Thanks,

Edward

You answered your own question, sort of. Jasper SanFilippo