Flea Market Lambert surprise

[AllenKoe]

This is where we see the saddest effect of Lambert's secretive testimony.

What may appear to be "secretive testimony" in this Deposition (April 1896) is complicated by the recent tragedy in Frank's life (just before his Testimony).

If Stephan has looked at Winter's website (http://www.pong-story.com/lambert/), perhaps we can have a reaction? Does this lead sleeve appear to be made years later and for what purpose?

I will keep the topic under advisement, and perhaps as more data accumulates, put it all together for an article. His family history is rather complicated.

Look at how many books over the years have claimed that Zonophone machines were being manufactured (for the market) in 1899. We now know (for sure?) that this did not happen until well into 1900. The most recent research - "The King of All Talking Machines" - will be out shortly.

Historical certainty is just over the next rainbow.

Allen

[phonogfp]

Look at how many books over the years have claimed that Zonophone machines were being manufactured (for the market) in 1899. We now know (for sure?) that this did not happen until well into 1900.

The collecting community has known this (or should have!) for almost 20 years. The Talking Machine Compendium (published in 1997) made it clear that Zonophones were not offered in the U.S. until at least April 1900 (see page 75). It's gratifying to see that research confirmed.

Additionally, the June 2006 issue of The Sound Box contained an article titled - of all things - Spring 1900: The Final Days of Berliner's Gramophone in America. There's a good amount of early Zonophone history in there as well, pinpointing U.S deliveries to...well...spring 1900.

And of course there's the article referenced in another thread ("Earliest Zonophone?") on this forum, published in the December 2011 issue of The Antique Phonograph. This one, Zonophone Talking Machines: The National Gramophone Corporation Years, 1899-1901, covered much the same ground while adding accounts from The Phonoscope which described the reported 1899 preparations of Universal to manufacture and export Zonophones. Admittedly, some of these accounts may have amounted to copy provided by Universal/National Gramophone Corp, but the April/May 1900 U.S. introduction of the Zonophone was reiterated.

Historical certainty is just over the next rainbow.

Amen to that!

George P.

[Starkton]

For me, the wholesale sales figures of the Berliner Gramophone Company, compiled by Ray Wile and cited by George in the "Earliest Zonophone" thread, solved the mystery where Frank Seaman got his machines from before May 1900.

If Stephan has looked at Winter's website

I haven't been there for years, so I checked it for new information, but it wasn't updated since August 2003!

[AllenKoe]

The collecting community has known this - that actual Zonophones were introduced in 1900 - (or should have!) for almost 20 years.

I have looked over such earlier publications - even back to the 1980s and before - and am unable to see a single reference to the 'ribbed Zonophone C' as part of the '1900' roll-out of Zonophones. Have I missed something? Didn't most (all?) sources (until now) show the 'flat panel C' as the first iteration of that type?

It may be that the Phonoscope was partly responsible since it was so seriously out of synch with the calendar, published months after its masthead dates.

For many years as well, we saw references to Zonophone discs being drilled out with an extra hole for the Zonophone turntable (in 1899). Was that possible?

We all push the ball forward a little at a time...

Allen

[phonogfp]

I have looked over such earlier publications - even back to the 1980s and before - and am unable to see a single reference to the 'ribbed Zonophone C' as part of the '1900' roll-out of Zonophones. Have I missed something? Didn't most (all?) sources (until now) show the 'flat panel C' as the first iteration of that type?

We've both missed something: any reference whatever to the Type C Zonophone - "ribbed" or otherwise - in your May 22 post which I quote (accurately) once more below:

Look at how many books over the years have claimed that Zonophone machines were being manufactured (for the market) in 1899. We now know (for sure?) that this did not happen until well into 1900.

I simply took issue with your statement that we now (emphasis mine) know that Zonophones were not available in the American market until well into 1900. I don't wish to belabor the point, but this fact was documented 29 years ago. In looking over earlier publications, "...even back to the 1980s and before...", you must have encountered an article you recently referenced in a different thread: From Berliner to Burt: American Graphophone's Initial Forays Into the Disc Record Market. This appeared in The Antique Phonograph Monthly back in 1986 (Vol. VIII, No.3), and it made clear (on page 7) that Zonophones didn't appear until 1900.

For many years as well, we saw references to Zonophone discs being drilled out with an extra hole for the Zonophone turntable (in 1899). Was that possible?

I wouldn't think so. Berliner discs perhaps, but not Zonophone.

I wonder if anyone else is still following this wayward thread...

three_stooges1.jpg (32.82 KiB) Viewed 1795 times

George P.

[AllenKoe]

George is probably right that this Zonophone information would be better placed in the Zonophone thread. Please forgive the 'intrusion.'

The word Zonophone is quite problematic as we know, as it is hard to tell when it refers to "Berliners in disguise" or actual UTMCo devices (Universal). The first Nov 1898 full page Seaman ads (Munseys etc) showed an image of the Johnson/Berliner gramophone but touted it as a (re-named) Zonophone! Talk about hiding in plain sight...

The references to the extra hole being drilled in Berliner discs in 1899 have appeared as recently as Dec. 2011 (p. 23: "Seaman...drilling...), haven't they? Have I misunderstood that footnoted description? I was merely asking (rhetorically?) how the extra (tiny) hole could be drilled in 1899 when there were no (real) Zonophones on the market yet. If I recall, Bayly/Kinnear also claimed 1899, as did Sutton's book on Disc Manufacturers (p. 235). Which dates were collectors going to use?

We also have this statement: "It is not known when Zonophone records were placed on sale, but 1899 seems a likely year." True, this claim was published in 1983 (APM, p. 3), but has presumably been modified over the years.

PHP (24 years ago, p. 46) claimed that May of 1900 was the first appearance of actual Zonophone machines (A, B, C). The new article (June 2015) will give the precise date when Seaman notified his Dealers and also show the first pictured ad with a genuine Zonophone.

New data is always welcomed as we try to sort out the past. One of the remaining mysteries is how Seaman managed to acquire machines for re-sale after Oct 1899 when the Berliner Co "refused" to sell the Johnson machines to him. Even the cited Court Case (on the Zonophone Thread) doesn't fully explain that. But Ray Wile's ARSC figures show that Seaman was still selling machines in that period (Oct 1899-Apr 1900), over 7000 of them. And they weren't Zonophones.

Best
Allen

[phonogfp]

The references to the extra hole being drilled in Berliner discs in 1899 have appeared as recently as Dec. 2011 (p. 23: "Seaman...drilling...), haven't they? Have I misunderstood that footnoted description? I was merely asking (rhetorically?) how the extra (tiny) hole could be drilled in 1899 when there were no (real) Zonophones on the market yet.

It appears the subject has shifted... Again. Now to Zonophone records in this thread?

I have no hard evidence as to whether Berliner records were being drilled in late 1899 or only in early 1900. However, since a large supply of records would need to be available prior to the introduction of the Zonophone, and since the existence of a Zonophone record laboratory/factory wasn't announced until February 1900 (Phonoscope November 1899 issue - published in February 1900 - p.10), it seems likely that this activity began in 1899. There certainly was much activity cited in The Phonoscope and in other sources as having occurred in 1899. (By the way, neither the sentence to which you refer cites 1899, nor does footnote #3 (the typo in which has already been explained weeks ago in the "Earliest Zonophone?" thread) mention the year 1899. I still think it a likely year.)

We also have this statement: "It is not known when Zonophone records were placed on sale, but 1899 seems a likely year." True, this claim was published in 1983 (APM, p. 3), but has presumably been modified over the years.

As noted above, Universal established its record production facility by February 1900. In 1983 I didn't yet have access to The Phonoscope, so yes - I have long since modified that date. Is there a point to this?

New data is always welcomed as we try to sort out the past.

Absolutely. Data is golden. The rushed interpretation of that data can sometimes tempt us to make claims that later turn out to be false. A conservative route is the best policy; one which I have attempted to pursue in my writing.

I have offered no public critique of any forum member's past published work in this thread. I don't consider it good form. However, if this line of "questioning" must (really?) be pursued, I suggest that it be done via PM or email. In this way others may be spared reading it, and I will feel more free to respond without the wise and accepted restraints of this forum.

George P.

[AllenKoe]

You are right. Let us wait until the publication of the June 2015 issue of The Antique Phonograph, which has both text and pictures relating to the actual Introduction of Seaman's new product(s).

There, the issue of when the extra holes in 7" disc records were created is discussed in greater detail. My only point on this (mislaid) thread is that the information on this topic has been very tangled over the years, and one still sees many claims ((books, etc) that 'Zonophone' second-hole records appeared in 1899. Old myths die hard...

Onward and upward.

Allen