The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Here's another laughable but prime example of an English "expert" dealer / auctioneer in action. A friend just sent me a 3 minute clip from one of those stupifyingly dumb UK TV "antique shows". I think it might be from Bargain Hunt? I don't honestly know as I never watch ANY of these programs, including the wretched Antiques Roadshow. Anyway, an "expert" is asked to appraise an HMV Intermediate Monarch with a laminated "oak" horn. Note, the horn isn't "wood" as the expert suggests. First off, any collector who hasn't been hiding for 40 years would have instantly noted the following:

1. HMV never made solid timber horns, they were all imported from Victor and are of thinly laminated construction with veneer finish.

2. The oak cabinet of this particular machine was about as dull as can be. It was a very ordinary shade of oak finish, nothing special and certainly not the amazing survival of the period the lady suggested it was. Oak machines were much more commonly sold and seen today in the UK than their mahogany counterparts. I'm not even sure this type of "Intermediate" Monarch was ever made in anything other than the plain oak shown?

3. The horn was battered around the edges and not the best example out there - you'd think it was the ONLY survivor judging by the look of the presenter and the "expert". The former was stunned by the gramophone and looked as though he was witnessing the sale of the Crown Jewels. He clearly has never seen many gramophones in the flesh. The latter looked pleasantly surprised when her pre-sale estimate was comfortably exceeded. However, I've seen unusual table models fetch more than her meagre estimate for an HMV horn model, let alone one with a laminated horn, which if you're not already aware can add as much as 100% onto the value of the machine. She obviously doesn't know this!

4. ANY half decent condition HMV horn machine with "wooden horn" will typically make a four figure sum. An Intermediate Monarch or HMV No. 2 / 20, which were the smallest machines fitted with the upgraded horn option will normally quite reliably fetch a sum in the lower reaches of four figures ie. £1000-1200. There have been several examples in auction during the past 12 months and ALL have made within that range. This has been the case for at least 25 years.

5. A pre-sale valuation by this expert of £250-350 was just plain ridiculous, even in the condition shown, indicating to me at least that she wasn't at all familiar with the subject. Who was she and how did she get to be called an "expert" in this field on national TV? She clearly isn't.

6. The hammer price shown in the program does not reflect the actual price paid. Why do they refuse to explain this for the masses watching? It only leads to even more price confusion. You should typically add another 20-25% on the hammer price to cover Buyers Premium and UK VAT (on the premium only, currently 20%)

7. Allowing for '6' the machine sold for £680, about ⅔ the current going rate due to the uninspiring condition of the horn and drab looking cabinet. With a bit of effort it could be made to look much better. The experts however thought it had done very well because it had exceeded the expert's valuation! It hadn't done too well all things considered because her valuation was clearly short of the mark and the machine just wasn't as good as they thought it was. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

Yes, more experts bring their considerable knowledge and experience to bear on another worthless TV program. But imagine if this so-called "expert" was thought by a newbie to be such a knowledgeable person simply because she was a dealer. It doesn't bear thinking about but clearly demonstrates that having a sign above your head declaring "DEALER" is no guarantee of knowledge, expertise or accurate judgement on the items in question.

Rant over.........

Welcome to real world of 2015! Full of treachery,deceit,jealousy and greed! Once again your good reputation will see you through all of this. The hobby is made up of a cross section of every personality type. Personally I don't have a whole lot of patience when I run across unreasonable nitwits and the encounter usually ends up on a sour note. The best thing is to maintain your high standards and try to deflect the onslaught of negativity from the chronically disgruntled types! Remember. Water seeks it's own level. Reasonable intelligent people will attract other reasonable intelligent people.

As it turns out, the buyer opted not to return anything, as the problem with the D not working resolved itself quickly.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments and support, and Happy Holidays to all!

Raphael

Raphael wrote:As it turns out, the buyer opted not to return anything, as the problem with the D not working resolved itself quickly.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments and support, and Happy Holidays to all!

Raphael

Raphael

I suppose the main point here is whether the buyer is satisfied that something is what any dealer declares it is. Irrespective of who might be the cause of the buyer's lack of satisfaction by pointing out faults, whether it's another dealer or collector and whether it's two days or two years after they've bought it, the issue really is whether any goods are exactly as they were originally described.

I'm always amazed by the people who buy Crapophones which were described as being "genuine antique original gramophone" and choose not to take up the issue with the seller. It's almost as though they are too embarrassed to admit that they didn't know better. It remains that we can't all be experts on all things all the time so we are to varying degrees all people who at some point will have to rely on someone elses' judgements and statements when purchasing.

I'm glad it got sorted anyway!

Steve

Curt A wrote:Generally, I agree that the buyer is responsible for doing his homework... That being said, I had an experience with a well known "collector/dealer" that I think is the other way around. When I first got interested in cylinder machines, I overpaid for an Edison Standard D model that I thought was a nice 2-4 minute machine. I never complained about paying probably twice as much as it was worth, and I really wanted to upgrade the machine, so I purchased a cygnet horn for $450 on eBay, a horn crane and ended up with over $1,000 in it. Several years later, I decided to sell it back to the same guy I bought it from and he began to pick it apart... This was wrong, that was wrong and it even had a knurled spark plug nut for a speed change knob. The funny thing was, I got it like this from him and I wasn't aware of what was incorrect, but he obviously knew that the knurled knob came from a spark plug. He downplayed it to the point that I let him have it for what I paid him originally and lost money on the deal just to get rid of it. Later, I found out that he resold it to some new collector for much more than he paid me and then had the absolute gaul to accuse me of switching out the lid with another of his machines, because "he would never have sold it to me with that D lid that had the 2-4 minute instruction sheet on the inside". This was one of the selling points he harped on that made this machine so expensive when he sold it to me... So, there are definitely plenty of greedy people in all areas of collecting both buying and selling... I trusted this guy because he was knowledgeable, a long time collector and has a huge collection with some of his machines pictured in recent books.

Curt,
Without calling any names, does this guy live on McCarn Street or something like that? The reason I ask, I had the same thing happen to me many years ago.

Yes, Ronnie... coincidentally he does... small world.

Curt A wrote:Yes, Ronnie... coincidentally he does... small world.

I guess we all started out this way. Unless you are lucky enough to meet an honest collector/dealer at the start.

It's sad to have to hear about a bad apple. Especially one so well known. There will always be tension between the collector and the dealer as the collector soon develops a mindset that his hobby shouldn't cost him anything where the dealer is in need of making a profit which the collector is often very resentful of. Many dealers try to disguise themselves as collectors thinking it will make transactions with gun shy collectors smoother and easier to achieve. Collectors have this false sense of security buying from other collectors. I have found over the years that the worst scoundrels in the hobby are some of the collectors who take advantage of their fellow less knowledgeable collectors. A good bonafide dealer has his reputation to protect so is unlikely to treat his customers poorly as it would be self defeating. Just remember altruism does not pay the dealers bills anymore than it does for the collector. Also, remember this is not Utopia so my advice to collectors is to do your due diligence when dealing with people. Expect to get nicked once in awhile. Everyone in the hobby has at one time or another because all of the negative human attributes fuel the impetus of this hobby.
(i.e.greed,lust,envy,deceit,etc.)
Reality 101!

edisonclassm wrote:It's sad to have to hear about a bad apple. Especially one so well known. There will always be tension between the collector and the dealer as the collector soon develops a mindset that his hobby shouldn't cost him anything where the dealer is in need of making a profit which the collector is often very resentful of. Many dealers try to disguise themselves as collectors thinking it will make transactions with gun shy collectors smoother and easier to achieve. Collectors have this false sense of security buying from other collectors. I have found over the years that the worst scoundrels in the hobby are some of the collectors who take advantage of their fellow less knowledgeable collectors. A good bonafide dealer has his reputation to protect so is unlikely to treat his customers poorly as it would be self defeating. Just remember altruism does not pay the dealers bills anymore than it does for the collector. Also, remember this is not Utopia so my advice to collectors is to do your due diligence when dealing with people. Expect to get nicked once in awhile. Everyone in the hobby has at one time or another because all of the negative human attributes fuel the impetus of this hobby.
(i.e.greed,lust,envy,deceit,etc.)
Reality 101!

I too was burned early on by a "well known", (at least in my area), collector. He convinced me to trade a very nice Columbia BI for a Standard Model A disc phonograph. But of course, I would also have to pitch in an extra $150 because the shabby Standard was far more desirable a machine. I even put a better horn on the BI before the trade because I felt guilty about some small flaws in the horn it had. Two months later he had my BI at Union with a big price tag on it. He has recently departed to a "better place". I hope his profits on the deal paid his admission.

Well stated Mr. Baker. I will always remember the first phonograph I saw in a little antique shop in town. It was a Amberola 30 with about 6 cylinders with it. I was mezermised by this machine playing a round record and it was actually made by T.A.Edison himself. The lady behind the counter called the owner for the price and I bought it and took it back to my office and played it the rest of the day. Of course I was on my lunch hour. I knew absolutely nothing about this phonograph but I was hooked. Went to the Charlotte show at the fair grounds and met my first expert. If I only would have educated myself but I was to excited.