The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I wasn't going to chime in, because we all know that opinions are like...ummm...noses. Everybody has one.

Still, Jerry expressed the potential problem perfectly.

But if Georg and Nick manufacture new cabinets prominently yet discreetly marked as reproductions, I'd have no problem with it so long as those markings cannot be easily effaced. It's an action that would make everyone happy and avoid unpleasantness in the future.

There's a current thread on this forum offering glow-in-the-dark Columbia style 6" 20th Century cylinders with an anachronistic selection recorded on them. Although either of these features alone is enough to prevent me from buying one, there's no chance that these fantasy records can ever be passed off as original to an educated collector. For that reason, I think it's a great idea - - let folks have what they want. However, a new mahogany cabinet for an Edison Phonograph could become a real problem for an innocent collector years down the road, unless appropriate markings are discretely included.

George P.

I agree, George... but the reality is that a Standard or Fireside is not that important as far as value or historical importance, considering the excellent Peruvian Victor VI mahogany cases and record cabinets that are currently being produced. I saw an unfinished case at a show several years ago that had all of the gilded corner hardware (new), etc. just waiting for an L door donor machine to make it complete. Finishes are easily aged and a newly built Victor VI would be very hard to distinguish from an original, especially if you had an original crank and some weathered bottom pieces from a donor/junker machine... The inside of the case could be aged with old motor oil or grease and who would know the difference.

At least most of Don Gfell's horns are original designs and no question about who built them, but some of the others could definitely be mistaken. I also saw a Columbia machine at a show that had been altered with a Busy Bee mandrel and a new Busy Bee decal - the person who did this will be unnamed, but very adept at doing these mods... so, whoever bought that thought they were getting a different machine (although similar).

I guess the lesson is: If you are going to pay a premium for a particular type of wood cabinet, or a particular variation of a common machine that is considered more rare, only buy it if you are happy with what you are looking at, not what you perceive it to be...

In my original reply I asked what anyone thought a mahogany Gem was worth. So far there have been no replies. I'll offer $2500 for an ordinary Gem or Fireside but it's got to be original and mahogany.

Jerry Blais

I seldom display my Edison Phonograph lids with the machines so a Mahogany cased Gem doesn't really get me excited. However I have always like the looks of a mahogany Triumph. If someone were to make an exact reproduction of a mahogany Edison Triumph case I would be interested.
Pete

Curt A wrote:I agree, George... but the reality is that a Standard or Fireside is not that important as far as value or historical importance, considering the excellent Peruvian Victor VI mahogany cases and record cabinets that are currently being produced. I saw an unfinished case at a show several years ago that had all of the gilded corner hardware (new), etc. just waiting for an L door donor machine to make it complete. Finishes are easily aged and a newly built Victor VI would be very hard to distinguish from an original, especially if you had an original crank and some weathered bottom pieces from a donor/junker machine... The inside of the case could be aged with old motor oil or grease and who would know the difference.

At least most of Don Gfell's horns are original designs and no question about who built them, but some of the others could definitely be mistaken. I also saw a Columbia machine at a show that had been altered with a Busy Bee mandrel and a new Busy Bee decal - the person who did this will be unnamed, but very adept at doing these mods... so, whoever bought that thought they were getting a different machine (although similar).

I guess the lesson is: If you are going to pay a premium for a particular type of wood cabinet, or a particular variation of a common machine that is considered more rare, only buy it if you are happy with what you are looking at, not what you perceive it to be...

This is how we should all approach collecting itself, in my opinion. Well said.

only buy it if you are happy with what you are looking at, not what you perceive it to be...

So you'd be happy to sell off a good portion of your collection to buy an old tinfoil machine only to find out that a perfect replica was aged on a back patio for an Oregon winter and then was sold by an unscrupleljss antique dealer? Really As the current Allstate commercial states... this has happened! (but I don't know if Allstate covered the loss)

Jerry Blais

Jerry B. wrote:

only buy it if you are happy with what you are looking at, not what you perceive it to be...

So you'd be happy to sell off a good portion of your collection to buy an old tinfoil machine only to find out that a perfect replica was aged on a back patio for an Oregon winter and then was sold by an unscrupleljss antique dealer? Really As the current Allstate commercial states... this has happened! (but I don't know if Allstate covered the loss)

Jerry Blais

If I was going to make that kind of a purchase I'd most certainly consult an expert because we all know that probably 90% of the tinfoil machines out there are replicas anyways.

But if you actually did buy it from a dealer that purposefully misrepresented it, you'd think that you could press fraud charges somehow, yes?

I think that what that statement is saying is that one needs to go into these things with one's eyes open.

gramophone-georg wrote:

Jerry B. wrote:

only buy it if you are happy with what you are looking at, not what you perceive it to be...

So you'd be happy to sell off a good portion of your collection to buy an old tinfoil machine only to find out that a perfect replica was aged on a back patio for an Oregon winter and then was sold by an unscrupleljss antique dealer? Really As the current Allstate commercial states... this has happened! (but I don't know if Allstate covered the loss)

Jerry Blais

If I was going to make that kind of a purchase I'd most certainly consult an expert because we all know that probably 90% of the tinfoil machines out there are replicas anyways.

But if you actually did buy it from a dealer that purposefully misrepresented it, you'd think that you could press fraud charges somehow, yes?

I think that what that statement is saying is that one needs to go into these things with one's eyes open.

It is truly "Buyers Beware" in any collectible market. Jerry, I would never think of selling my entire collection for one machine that I was not entirely certain of.... That was my point: If you are going to pay a premium for ANY machine, you either have to be an expert yourself, or only buy things that you are happy with no matter what the outcome... Many collectors as well as experts have been fooled, either by intent or by lack of knowledge by the buyer or seller. If you go to buy a used car, do you trust everything that the sales person says? Or, do you take a chance on it being as described or do you hire a mechanic to look it over? Even then, the car may be fine as far as usefulness, even though it was submerged in a hurricane in Louisiana and rebuilt from the ground up...

Would you buy a rare Honus Wagner baseball card, knowing that the technology exists to produce an exact replica...? I wouldn't... On April 20, 2012, an anonymous New Jersey resident purchased a VG-3 graded T206 Wagner card for more than $1.2 million. On April 6, 2013, a T206 card sold for a record for a baseball card on an online auction. It brought in $2,105,770.50 in an online sale by Goldin Auctions.

That sale makes any phonograph purchase sound like a no brainer...

Hi Gramophone_georg,
If you are able to find someone who can do this properly, please let us know.
Thanks.

billybob62 wrote:Hi Gramophon_georg,
If you are able to find someone who can do this properly, please let us know.
Thanks.

Will do. I have a friend who is a really decent woodworker/ fabricator. He is very interested in this project. Unfortunately, I don't have any Edison machines but a two clip Standard around at this point, so if this looks like a go we may need to borrow a case from someone to use as a model.

What he can't do I likely can, as I do veneering and finishing on dashboards and other embellishments in my 'day job'.