HMV 130

[Steve]

Bart

I hate to say I told you so but, of course, I did. I'm sorry it turned out to be the case

I knew it was all wrong but it was already too late and what could you do? The excuse that it's "bought as seen" is not a legal defense either. AS he states that it is "original" he is effectively removing the "get out clause" that "bought as found" represents. He implies that he knows that it is all original and you are making a contract with him to this end. Very very shameful but sadly a very common trait.

[bart1927]

Yes, shame on me, I know. Lesson learned. I contacted the seller again to confront him with the fact that "sold as is" isn't some magical spell that makes all false claims go away. But he keeps insisting his description was accurate. Apparently his definition of "completely original" means that it is all original, except for the missing or unoriginal parts. Yeah, right.

Because I haven't used PayPal the only things I can do is to give him a negative feedback and file a complaint with Ebay. I doubt if the latter will be succesful. Ebay will probably say they know nothing about phonographs and therefore can't verify my claim. Fortunately I now have the correspondence with the seller, in which he admits that the cloth is missing and the escutcheon is a replacement, even though in his opinion that doesn't make the phonograph any less "completely original".

Of course I could get out of my way to damage his reputation as much as I can, but I'm not that kind of a guy. Plus this guy probably has the largest stock of 78's in the Netherlands, so if I choose to go that way I probably never be able to set a foot in his shop again. Then again, after this whole accident I really don't want him to make any more money out of me.

[bart1927]

A second problem is that when I play a record I hear a very loud resonance, that comes from my reproducer. If I put my finger on the stylus bar (that's what they call it, right? The thing you put the metal needle in, and is attached to the middle of the diaphragm?) the resonance decreases. Furthermore I noticed it could play no more than 2.5 record sides on a full wind-up (and it`s a double spring motor, right?) and during playback I sometimes hear a loud thumb from the inside. I contacted the seller, and I await his response.

Aside from the missing grille-cloth, and incorrect escutcheon, you probably didn't do too badly.

The bumping motor springs should be attended to ASAP, before playing too many records. I'm sure many of the members here can give you some repair tips, or can recommend a shop that will clean and lubricate the motor for a nominal charge.

As for the resonance you hear when playing a loud record, that may be caused by an incorrectly adjusted needle bar pivot mounting. The needle bar should be able to move freely in the direction required to track the record, but there should be no movement in the opposite direction, which is known as "side play."

If you feel comfortable in doing this, you could try readjusting the pivot, following these instructions, to see if there's any improvement:

Pivot Bar Instructions 1.JPG

Pivot Bar Instructions 2.JPG

Hi Ortho_Fan, thanks for the advice. Unfortunately I don't have the really tiny instruments needed to loosen the lock nuts. But I noticed one of the end cap screws looked a little loose, so I tightened it a little bit (with the smallest screwdriver I could find), and that improved the sound a lot. There is still some resonance, but with the proper tools even I might be able to fix it. Now if I only knew where to buy those small instruments. A really tiny hardware store perhaps?

With the screws retightened I must say the sound is really impressive for such a modest looking machine, so I guess I might as well keep it, and make it my first "restoration" project. I'm not going to regrease the springs myself, but I'm going to make a few phone calls tomorrow and see who can do the job for me for a resonable price. But I'm afraid it`s going to cost me at least the equivalent of $ 100.,-

Also, I will buy some replacement grill cloth. It's not a really big grill, so that should not be too expensive. The seller told me the metal grid was original, and served as a protectection for the cloth. So I guess I will have to replace it, behind the cloth.

Also, the wood needs some TLC. The veneer on top of the lid is starting to come off, so I have to glue it back. And the metal (brass?) needs some work, the tonearm and needle cups don't look very shiny. Btw, what is the purpose of those two "clips" next to the used needle container? What are they supposed to hold?

Thanks advance for all the advice!

Kind regards,

Bart

[Steve]

Btw, what is the purpose of those two "clips" next to the used needle container? What are they supposed to hold?

Bart

They hold Tungstyle needle tins - you might think for the price he charges, he'd at least have given you 2 of those to complete the machine.

The Table Grands of this period DID have a metal reinforcement behind the cloth so at least that much is right. BTW if the seller now admits that the cloth is missing and the escutcheon is repro etc, why not quote this to Ebay when you complain about the item not being as described? After all, HE IS NOW CONTRADICTING HIS LISTING IN WRITING. Ebay doesn't need to be an expert to understand that much, surely?

Any dealer who knows you or knows of you and might expect you to return to his shop one day but fails to refund you when you are not happy, is not a good or very honourable dealer in my opinion and they deserve any flak they might get.

It's just such a short-sighted and short term view of the trade, it's hard for anyone with any integrity to understand. If you need any help let me know.

[Steve]

Oh, I see who the seller is now. I'll keep a note of this for future reference.

[OrthoFan]

With the screws retightened I must say the sound is really impressive for such a modest looking machine, so I guess I might as well keep it, and make it my first "restoration" project.

Hi Bart:

First of all, I agree with Steve that the seller should stand behind his original claims. I also feel that you are due, at the very least, a partial refund. Hopefully, the seller will come to realize this too.

In any event, I'm glad that the slight adjustment you made to the end-cap screw setting improved the sound quality. This leads me to believe that a full adjustment, as I described in my earlier post, should do the trick.

The end-cap screws are basically there to provide a counter-force to the lock nuts on each pivot mounting. It's kind of hard to describe, but the pivot is virtually identical to that of the Victor/HMV sound box illustrated here:


(FROM: http://www.nipperhead.com/old/vic4sb01.htm )


Since this was a "top of the market" table gramophone, specifically designed to play electrically recorded records, it's sound quality should not be underestimated. Depending on the records you play, you should hear crisp treble notes, a solid mid-range, and even a strong hint of bass.

I feel that it's well worth the trouble to restore it.

Good luck.
O.F.

[bart1927]

I wanted to file a complaint with Ebay yesterday, but according to their site I have to wait until 10 days after the date of purchase. The seller is not very forthcoming, he's willing to send me another, probably not original, escutcheon, with a better fit, and nothing more. He says that all defects could be told from the pictures and the video, and according to the description "what you see is what you get", "all sales are final", and "no returns or refunds". He also says that I could have asked him about those things beforehand, and that a couple of missing or replaced parts don't make the machine any less original. I don't agree. It is true that it is an original HMV 130 (and not a repro), the fact that there are original parts missing certainly means it is not completely original.
Also, I don't think it's allright to willfully be silent about certain defects and use the creed "if you don't ask me, I don't have to tell you". So I have to wait another 5 days from now, after that I will file a complaint against him.

[bart1927]

Today I took out the motor and I removed the reproducer and went to visit another gramophone and 78's dealer not far from here. I never visited his shop before, and he was very friendly and interested. He made coffee, brought some chocolates, and we talked for at least 2 hours. Wonderful guy, full of anecdotes. Anyway, I showed him my motor, he opened the spring drum, and indeed the 80 year old graphite grease was the cause of all problems. He cleaned everything and regreased and it was a lot cheaper than I expected, only EUR 40 (approx. $ 50). Other than the hardened grease the motor was in good condition. The reproducer was not that good, the rubber was hard as a rock, and it had a small crack that had been repaired, but not completely succesfull. I should state that the Ebay seller did mention the small repair to the reproducer in his ad. He also readjusted the pivot, it helped a lot, but the resonance wasn't gone completely. Of course I didn't bring my entire HMV to his shop, he tried it on another HMV in his shop. He had another 5A reproducer in stock, which sounded better, and also a 5B. The 5B was cosmetically in better condition, but since the 5A is original to the 130, I bought that from him, for another EUR 50. Back home I installed the motor, and it runs a lot smoother now. Ocassionaly I hear a little bump, but he told me this could happen in the beginning, because the new grease has to spread itself around the springs. In any case I don't have to worry anymore about jamming the motor with solid grease. I'm not sure I reinstalled the motor correctly, before removing it I had to remove the connection with the speed adjuster. I now have the problem that the turntable only revolves at 78 rpm when I set the speed adjuster to max. If I set it to min. the turntable comes to a halt. Furthermore it takes a while before it gets up to speed, on a few records it stops halfway, because the motor can't take the drag anymore, and it still plays only ⅔ sides before it needes rewinding. If I let the turntable spin without a record on it, it spins about 10 minutes before it stops. So I may have to contact my friendly dealer again.

Back home I found the Ebay dealer responded again. Yesterday he was not very communicative, and seemed annoyed. Apparently he decided to be a little more forthcoming. He offered to degrease and regrease the motor free of charge, and send me an original HMV escutcheon. Since I already let the other dealer deal with the motor, I can't take him up on that one. But I'm happy with the original escutcheon he promised. I guess he came to the conclusion that his Ebay description left much to be desired, he was afraid to loose a customer, or just didn't want the negative feedback.

[Starkton]

Apparently his definition of "completely original" means that it is all original, except for the missing or unoriginal parts.

Well said. This applies to many dealers. And as I wrote before, you must be at least as well versed as the seller about the item you buy.