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Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:26 pm
by donniej
The materials used in modern times are probably chemically very different than those used 100 years ago. It may be a matter of sending out samples to labs for analysis..
most paints used then probably contained lead.
Most finishes now probably contain petroleum products.
Etc...
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:55 pm
by krkey1
Awesome, sometimes coin collectors have to do stuff like this.
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:26 pm
by Django
Analysis of metals requires distructive testing and it is expensive. There are generally other clues like understanding the manufacturing process. You manufacture differently when the quantities are high.
Removing a piece of hardware is usually a good way to tell if something is real. The metal, or even the plating will react or be preserved in the area of contact. The original finish of the wood will be well preserved beneath the hardware too. If it hasn't been distributed, the outline of the hardware should be well defined.
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:28 pm
by Uncle Vanya
krkey1 wrote:I have been thinking about this and some problems the hobby will face in the future.
We will have the ongoing battle with crapophones and the frakenphone but those are not a danger to collectors on forums such as this. We know what the right machines look like. If we have a question we can always ask people on here. We just need to find a way to disseminate our knowledge so that newbies to the hobby can super quickly find it. I think we also might want to keep a list of ebay sellers who knowingly sell those items.
I present though this hobby is about to face new challenges from the following machines I shall describe below:
Restorophone.
An original machine but almost 100% restored. We know now with digital scanning that the problem which once plagued decals is pretty much gone. The reproduction ones for sale look just like the originals. We also know it is possible to exactly match original paints now. We can match original nickel plating etc. We know ways to make any finish look completely original.
What happens when down the road we have one of these machines as being presented as just a well conditioned original. What happens forty or fifty years down the road when these machines do acquire a genuine age patina.
Reprophone.
We all know about reproduction parts. We all know about the horns ( and cabinets) made by such artist as Gfell and Eduardo. As of now some reproduction parts look different than the original parts because we did not have computer scanners readily available to copy the originals but that is no longer true. What happens when we get reproduction parts that truly cannot be distinguished from the originals. What then happens when we get a machine when they are almost all reproduction. Especially if the machine has been both deliberately aged and allowed to truly age. How then do we tell them apart from the truly originals? We are going to face this problem down the road now with Eduardo and Gfell horns when they truly do age and look virtually identical to the originals. Remember Eduardo also makes cabinets.
How are we as a hobby to respond to these changes. I am open to suggestions.
Feh.
These problems have been with us as long as the hobby has existed. Forty years ago well doe restored machines were often preferred to originals. Excellent, original style decalcomanias IN THE ORIGINAL VARNISH TRANSFER FORMAT were then available. I often see machines which I restored back in my salad days come up for sale described as "Excellent originals". As far as reproductions are concerned, well, they show themselves up after some time passes. A reproduction is always conceived through the eyes of the person who builds it. The way that we look at these machines changes over time. An older reproduction often appears to be patently fake to someone who looks at ti through modern eyes. Such will ever be the case, I think.
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:39 pm
by Uncle Vanya
Django wrote:
It would not be very difficult for someone with the right background, and an original machine to produce knock-offs. But if there was a sudden flood of Edison Operas, I think that word would get out.
Well, there were at least twenty good fake Operas built from Amberola III and Amberola 1B mechanisms about thirty years ago. A parts supplier in California made up the reproducer and horn support assemblies, reproduction cabinets were built, and fake name plates were made. I found out later that this group of machines were the destination of a large group of Ives drawer handles (the same units used by Edison on the Opera and Idelia cabinets) which I salvaged from a 1908 vintage mansion in East Cleveland, OH, in 1982. The plates are not quite right, having been cast rather than etched, and the serial number bosses are all ground nearly flat so that "Opera" serial numbers could be assigned in place of the obvious Amberola numbers.
I saw one of these machines turn up at Union a few years ago. It was priced appropriately at a couple thousand dollars or so, though it was not specifically represented as repro. I regret not buying it, for it presented well, and played quite as well as a real machine.
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:45 pm
by krkey1
The way to tell those "operas" is to look for a curved notch in the bottom right front of the bedplate. Real operas do not have that feature
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:45 am
by Curt A
One final thought: I personally, don't view Don Gfell or Eduardos horns as "fake" or "reproductions", but rather as modern day originals. This is the same as aftermarket horns made by TeaTray and others in the early days - not made by the original manufacturers, but very desirable upgrades to a plain black horn. These are considered to be collectible in the same sense as the originals and are considered to be originals in their own right...
Another example is reproducers and parts made by Paul Baker, Miroslav Stehlic (hope I spelled that right) and tinfoil machines newly made by other skilled machinists. These parts have a collector following, as well, since certain reproducers made by the aforementioned makers may command a higher price than the originals.... So, who knows - maybe down the road Gfell or Eduardo horns will be considered preferable to the period originals by some collectors.
I really don't foresee ANY future interest in Crap-O-Phones...
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:03 am
by epigramophone
I am reminded of the story of "Grandfather's Axe", on it's second blade and it's fourth handle, but in "original condition".
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:38 am
by Django
Restoration never results in an original. If authenticity and correctness is maintained and the quality is equal to the original, then it's all good from where I stand. If the only acceptable machine was an original survivor, this would be a pretty small forum and many museums would be quite small.
Reproduction machines are fine with me as long as there is no attempt to deceive. Some can be very close to the originals, but most will have some feature that gives their secret away. If someone builds or alters a machine to deceive, then they committed a fraud, but this has been done in most collectable markets. Rebadged Chevelle SS, Shelby Cobras, Road Runners... They all had the pedestrian version that could be brought up to the special level. Art, clocks, musical instruments and furniture all suffer the same fate.
It is when it is done for profit and deception that it becomes a real problem. Cheating people through deceptive practices is as old as man kind, and we are not going to change that here. We can look out for each other and those coming along by reporting fraud as we come across it and by sharing knowledge as is done on this forum. And we can be responsible in our own actions. Fake art and antiquities will always be a problem as long as a monetary value is placed on the item.
Maybe a book on spotting fakes could be a collaborative effort. There are many skilled and knowledgeable people with different backgrounds within this forum. Chemists, historians, cabinet makers, artists, machinists and engineers to name a few. Long time collectors have undocumented knowledge. As far as I know, there is no go to book to help someone to identify authenticity. Maybe that would be a worthwhile effort. The more years pass, the less history can be documented and educated guesses often replace facts.
Re: Future of the hobby
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:48 am
by Django
It is good to see that there are so many concerned collectors right here that believe in ethical buying and selling. Thanks to krkey1 for starting this conversation.