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Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:08 pm
by CarlosV
gramophone-georg wrote:
I think there's a third reason- all of the "authorities" tend to look down on the Swing Era as "not spontaneous" or some such drivel, in the same way such authorities also favor black artists as the "true" jazz guys while white artists are interlopers. It's all nonsense. Jazz never could have been without EVERYONE'S contribution. Klezmer plays as big a role as African rhythm here, to name just one example. Jazz was the first real attempt at civil rights in practice, and it worked because all jazzmen listened to and earned from each other. A really little known example of this that I've brought up before was the fact that Armstrong and Lombardo were huge fans of each other's musical style in the Twenties and legend has it that they met up quite often. In later years it was Armstrong and Teagarden. You had the intermixing of Goldkette and McKinney's, Billie Holiday sang with Benny Goodman and then Artie Shaw, and on and on.
As far as the Swing Era goes- looking down on it as some lesser form of jazz is ridiculous. I'm not talking "sweet" bands here- I'm talking about Goodman, Shaw, Dorsey, Basie, Ellington, Barnet, Woody Herman, Teagarden, Teddy Wilson, etc. Listen to Goodman's Carnegie Hall concert to see what it was REALLY about.
The Twenties were no more "pure" in many ways... Goldkette, Whiteman, Fletcher Henderson, Redman with McKinney's... they were all developing a "book" of arrangements a decade or more before the Swing Era- and ALL of the Swing Era greats "apprenticed" in these bands.
You are correct in your assessment, Georg. There is a pervasive inverted racism that plagues jazz critics up to now, when history shows that jazz is the result of the interbreeding of music of several colors. And the BG at Carnegie Hall record is terrific! On Armstrong, besides his public praises of Lombardo sax section, he mentions in a recorded interview that one of his heroes when he was learning to play the trumpet was B.A.Rolfe, the virtuoso that led a dance band and recorded for Edison.
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:39 am
by Inigo
I agree with most that has been said herein. But don't put Ellington in the same bag... Each time I listen to Ellington and compare him with what the other bands were recording at the same time, I'm more convinced that he was a genius, different from all the others.
This doesn't mean the others weren't good, I'm only trying to highlight the tremendous originality of Ellington and his men...
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:03 am
by Inigo
I love big band and swing, but must recognise that not all the recordings satisfy my ears... All bands or groups had dull recordings when compared to others that were genial.
Maybe this statement is not absolutely fair, for I find I'm capable of getting fascinated by every single recording, provided I listen to it enough times with attention...
Maybe it's the tremendous output recorded, most of it still available in its original form (78rpm)... Thrillions of copies must have been pressed, for still 80 years later you can buy many of them, and build a good huge collection for $3 apiece, really fast! That was my case in 1997 when I discovered internet. The most common big band records are true pieces of mastery that should be in every collection.
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:06 am
by gramophone-georg
Inigo wrote:I agree with most that has been said herein. But don't put Ellington in the same bag... Each time I listen to Ellington and compare him with what the other bands were recording at the same time, I'm more convinced that he was a genius, different from all the others.
This doesn't mean the others weren't good, I'm only trying to highlight the tremendous originality of Ellington and his men...
Agree, Ellington along with Henderson was one of the great innovators. In "Cotton Tail", for example, one can hear bop plus what almost seems to be early third stream, but in a big band setting.
Yet, the same can be said for Artie Shaw, who also foreshadowed bop in some of his Gramercy 5 records... with a harpsichord, no less. Then there's Tommy Dorsey. who also moved the musical timeline along by rescuing Sinatra from possible obscurity with Harry James, brought Sy Oliver into the mainstream, and made some really great almost boppish recordings with Charlie Shavers... all before introducing, along with brother Jimmy, Elvis Presley to the world on their "Stage Show" television program 9 months before Ed Sullivan did.
Did the Dorsey Brothers REALLY "create" Elvis before Ed Sullivan did? Would Elvis have even gotten on Sullivan without his "Stage Show" appearances? I wonder. I'm sure the Dorsey name gave Elvis a certain solid legitimacy. He was on the Dorsey Brothers' show six times! They weren't prudish about letting Elvis be Elvis like Ed Sullivan was, either. Seems to me that Tommy Dorsey was really who was responsible for ushering in the age of the singer- and THEN the rock and roll era. Did he realize he was killing off his own style of music? Perhaps a better question might be: "Did he care?"
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:43 am
by Inigo
How many great men led those bands...!!!
I've also an interesting record (blue Vocalion) that always has surprised me.... Very nice, and kind of innovative, at least to profane ears like mine...
plymouth rock (lang) — BENNY CARTER O — vo v 4984 (2539-99 25cm s) — Mx. wm 1046 a — Rec. 1939 06 29 ny
In the other hand, I love certain recordings by Guy Lombardo. The latest one seems to my attention powerfully;
GUY LOMBARDO O + V — bei mir bist du schoen -- foxtrot (jacob jacobs, sholom secunda) — hmv k 8052 dgrph lvdsm (4990-17 25cm s) — Mx. 0A 017718 1 <V.E:> = M3-92694
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:28 pm
by Phonofreak
I really enjoy Big Band Records. Years ago, my Father gave me his collection. I really enjoyed them. It gave me a slice of life of my Father's generation. Heck, I enjoy and collect Hawaiian records, but that another topic.
Harvey Kravitz
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:46 am
by SteveM
Phonofreak wrote:I really enjoy Big Band Records. Years ago, my Father gave me his collection. I really enjoyed them. It gave me a slice of life of my Father's generation. Heck, I enjoy and collect Hawaiian records, but that another topic.
Harvey Kravitz
Ditto in all respects. I have that same emotional connection to big band, courtesy of my dad. And don’t have that relationship with hot jazz, hot as it may be.
Hawaiian and Latin records (heck, even Coogees) take me away to exotic, faraway lands, for very little money.
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:39 pm
by AmberolaAndy
Sure you can’t play records from the 1940s on a acoustic machine, but they are fun to hear on 1940s restored Radio Phono combos.
As for the records from the era, I guess they heard too many Sammy Kaye, Kay Keyser, Decca Crosby, Decca Fred Waring, Lawrence Welk, and Guy Lombardo records, or too many records with the same generic playing and vocal refrains (I think that’s what they call “sweet” bands?) and assume all late 1930s to early 1950s records are junk!
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:46 am
by Inigo
Let's admit it... don't be ashamed... I'm not whatsoever...
Although we collect opera, acoustic recordings, old english revue, classical, hot jazz only on Okeh... rare blues...
a great bunch of Glenn Miller records are good, and some are simply WONDERFUL...!!!
(Sorry...
One before-luch beer, and just listening to Tuxedo Junction... Also Serenade in blue seems to me a GREAT recording. The band arrangements are great. The voices and diction of songs by such people as Artie Malvin or Ray Eberle are wonderful. Many records are dull, but other many are real pieces of artistry and good work)
Re: Why do record collectors hate Big Band music?
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:15 pm
by phonosandradios
Inigo wrote:
a great bunch of Glenn Miller records are good, and some are simply WONDERFUL...!!!
I'm with you on that one. I recently boughs a NOS reel to reel tape of a live performance of the Glenn Miller Band from 1961 which had many of the old members of the original band in it at that time and with the original vocalists. Whilst it is strange to hear the familiar arrangements in hi-fi and stereo it does really bring them to life.
Here is a link to a short excerpt from the start of the tape - must of been one hell of a performance to hear it in real life!
https://app.box.com/s/fez2k6szszxwwmhe3vmbz9ltkm84f2hx
I have also attached some photos of the tape box